Lyrics and theology

Where do you all draw the line when it comes to problematic theology in Christian lyrics? For example, I’m pretty lenient. I listen to Dale’s stuff even though I feel universalism is a serious error. However, I avoid Neal Morse because I feel like denying the Trinity is a more serious error that is potentially damning.

What are your thoughts? 

PS: I don’t want anyone judging anyone else for where their line is. Conscience matters.

In before the lock!  

I listen to Christian metal over secular for the spiritual edification factor.  If I don't find Christian music edifying, I'd rather just listen to "safe secular" music - as I find music under the Christian umbrella but far enough outside my own theological understandings to be actually un-edifying.  Admittedly, I'm not very consistent with this.  For example, I don't typically choose to listen to anything specifically Catholic, but enjoy Ritual Servant because they stick to the core doctrines and Scripture and seem to truly "get" the Gospel.  I generally don't seek out any new music from Orthodox or Catholic bands, but I also haven't purged the ones I already have.  I'll also always give the band the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

Us Reformed types are known for elevating tertiary theological differences into primary ones, so I try not to do that, though if a band is "preaching" stuff contradictory to my beliefs, I won't be able to enjoy it nearly as much.  Conversely, if I know a band is coming from a similar theological understanding as me, I enjoy it all the more!

I thought you reformed folks were known for theological looseness and getting along with everybody! 


As I’ve said in the past, it’s always better to practice safe secular, but only in the covenant of marriage.

One time I heard Kerrick say, “Westminster, Schmestminster. Have you heard the latest Elevation Worship?”

To be honest, I don't care much about the theological stance.  I understand that there are different denominations and we all interpret the scriptures through our own lenses.  We are all wrong on some points and won't care who was right when we get to be with Jesus forever.  We are all blessed hypocrites who are trying to find peace with God through Jesus.  That's the filter.  If they ever stop making salvation about anything but Christ and Him crucified, that is the line when it comes to "Christian music".  I might add if they ever openly start singing and embracing sin and using their platform to tell people that it's okay to do those things even if the New Testament says it's wrong.

I'm not sure what "denying the Trinity" means TBH.

Does Neil not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist at all?  Or does he misrepresent their relationship?

From what I’ve seen he does not affirm that God is eternally existent as one in essence, three in persons. (To be brief). I’ve also seen statements that seem to imply that he does believe that Jesus Christ is eternally God.

I’m praying he’s changed since this, but here you go:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nealmorse/neal-answers-theology-question-t1233.html

This thread gets into it briefly:

https://thecmr.forumotion.com/t13992-the-dreamer-joseph-part-one-the-new-project-from-neal-morse

Pethead wrote:I thought you reformed folks were known for theological looseness and getting along with everybody! 


As I’ve said in the past, it’s always better to practice safe secular, but only in the covenant of marriage.

Pethead wrote:One time I heard Kerrick say, “Westminster, Schmestminster. Have you heard the latest Elevation Worship?”

You got a couple literal "LOLs" out of me with these hahaha.

I'm very similar to Kerrick on this. And I'm probably also inconsistent. I want Christian music that is edifying - it doesn't have to be distinctly Presbyterian (and it almost never is anyway). A great example of an edifying album is Deliverance's Weapons.

I certainly draw the line at outright, blatant heresy. The kind of thing that would break the fundamental Christian understanding of God. An example of this is Shadows of Paragon, which I have discussed in another thread. Their album Amendment had lyrics so bad that I have never gone back and listened to their previous album or EP again because it is so tainted in my mind.

Sometimes if I find out about the beliefs of an artist, even if they aren't expressed in the music, it will change my view of something. This happened with one of the guys from Becoming the Archetype (also discussed in a different thread). I still listen to their latest album, but to me it is just safe secular sci-fi metal - not Christian.

I try to avoid anything distinctly Roman but don't go out of my way to dig into the background of a band to figure it out. Sometimes it is obvious though. I avoid Ritual Servant for this reason (and also because of the image of Christ on their album cover).

I'm pretty similar for Eastern Orthodox. I gave up on Crimson Moonlight's latest album (it pales in comparison to their previous material) but still listen to their older material.

One example of a possible inconsistency for me is Sanctifica's Spirit of Purity. The title track has the following lines:

"O you mighty spirit. Before time you were
created. From the father you have arised,
Your greatness no one can conquer. O you
mighty spirit. Before time you were created.
You are an essence of power, the timeless
universe you embrace.

The demons of darkness cannot fight him.
His power is eternal. As a wind he liberates,
liberates the curse of hell. The messenger of
purity you are, like a flame of fire you fill my
soul. So fill my soul with purity, purity by the
blood of Christ."

Assuming the "spirit of purity" is the Holy Spirit, the problem with these lyrics is immediately evident. The Holy Spirit was never created. He is eternal because he is God. Also he is not "an essence of power". He is a person. This obviously amounts to Trinity denial, though I actually think it may have been a sloppy accident and am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like they were trying to come up with "dark" and "metal" lyrics and just did not care to be theologically accurate. I'm still willing to listen to this album, but after I found these lyrics, I don't enjoy it as much as I used to.

A couple other areas I struggle with:

Lyrics that treat God too flippantly, even if unintentionally. (“Better than pot, Jesus rocks!” being an example).

What I call “killing demons like a boss” lyrics.

I might still spin some of these, but I cringe.

Pethead wrote:A couple other areas I struggle with:

Lyrics that treat God too flippantly, even if unintentionally. (“Better than pot, Jesus rocks!” being an example).

What I call “killing demons like a boss” lyrics.

I might still spin some of these, but I cringe.

Same. The Grave Declaration track "Hardest Rocking God of All Time" is just terrible in this regard.

I think when bands are new and immature in the faith I can kind of snicker at this but if they do it later I cringe.

It’s easy to make fun of CCM’s “God or girlfriend” lyrics, but these might be worse—you can probably see why:

https://genius.com/Red-sea-soulshaker-lyrics

I've pretty much given up on solid Christian lyrics so I'm happy when they are.

CrimsonWarrior wrote:I certainly draw the line at outright, blatant heresy. The kind of thing that would break the fundamental Christian understanding of God. An example of this is Shadows of Paragon, which I have discussed in another thread. Their album Amendment had lyrics so bad that I have never gone back and listened to their previous album or EP again because it is so tainted in my mind.

Sometimes if I find out about the beliefs of an artist, even if they aren't expressed in the music, it will change my view of something. This happened with one of the guys from Becoming the Archetype (also discussed in a different thread). I still listen to their latest album, but to me it is just safe secular sci-fi metal - not Christian.

I try to avoid anything distinctly Roman but don't go out of my way to dig into the background of a band to figure it out. Sometimes it is obvious though. I avoid Ritual Servant for this reason (and also because of the image of Christ on their album cover).

Very interesting.

Agreed on Shadows of Paragon. I had a series of messages going back and forth with band members on the lyrics until I pressed just a few real questions and, though I was told they'd get back to me, I heard nothing. If the lyrics weren't so theological it wouldn't be as clear how messed up they were.

I consider BTA Christian in every sense when it comes to Jason Wisdom writing the lyrics and love the allegorical lyrics on the latest album. Maybe I'm missing something big here with Jason? I know Seth seems unorthodox but I'm not sure how that effects what Jason writes.

I thought Patrick from Ritual Servant came from a Baptist background and was exploring the Catholic Church for a brief time. Is he still RC? Is that something you'd consider the band? Am I missing some aspect of Catholic teaching in the lyrics?

Personally, I want bold, practically applicable, edifying Christian lyrics. They can be angry, spiritual warfare, against the world lyrics like Skald in Veum/Demon Hunter or thoroughly Scriptural like Ritual Servant, theological like many Theocracy songs, or encouraging like many a Stryper song.

I love that Christian metal, hardcore, punk, etc. addresses topics modern worship never touches and secular bands have no useful commentary on. There is no topic that isn't addressed somewhere in a song. I love that!

In terms of theology and what goes too far... I guess ignorance is bliss for me. If I find out a band has aberrant beliefs it becomes a sticking point. August Burns Red members repudiating faith, having members that mocked a biblical view of marriage made it impossible for me to listen though some members seem to have held the faith. Neal Morse I've gone back and forth on several times over the years but the last Neal Morse Band album didn't have any good edifying lyrics anyway. I gave up on the band Voluntary Mortification after reading their notably Catholic lyrics. My wife's family is stuck in that system but for a few who have been saved. It's not for me.

I actually think I wouldn't agree with the theology of a vast number of bands I listen to. However, most aren't clear enough to warrant my warning bells going off.

This is the way I think: I listen to some kiss and Mr. big, Whitesnake, and so on. Some of their lyrics regards love between a man and a woman in a non-christian point of view. 
And I find it okay, I only skip some Kiss songs which I find the lyrics completely silly.

Same with theology, Unless it gets to the point of silliness, I can hear it, and it is like hearing someone's else point of view...

If I could just listen to what I agree with, then what would I learn them????

PS:
I am glad this thread were much more well received than this one: https://thecmr.forumotion.com/t13838-christian-point-of-view-from-the-bands-we-love

Yeah, not locked yet???

I'm very inconsistent on this, but it largely comes down to the definitions of "bad theology" and "heresy" and how much do either actually show up in the lyrics.  Basically I listen if I don't have to hear it in the lyrics.
Examples from this thread:
Dale Thompson.  I disagree with him on whatever universalism/second chance theology he believes in, but I gladly buy because he's still proclaiming Christ in the lyrics where it doesn't come up.  I find Bride's Incorruptible unlistenable because of that theological stance.
Neal Morse.  I listen because I've never heard his stance in the lyrics at all.  Granted I don't own everything he's written, but I don't hear it.
Arrogance over the Devil lyrics.  Sure, it goes against Jude 9, and sure, it usually comes off as cheesy, but if the music's good I'll listen.  "To Hell with the Devil" is the greatest Christian metal anthem ever.
I can agree to disagree on most theology.

Also, what's the difference between a singer having bad theology that doesn't show up in the lyrics vs. say, a bass player having bad theology that doesn't show up in the lyrics?

What's wrong with the Red Sea lyrics? I must be missing something.


I'm pretty lenient. If you're not actively giving the Christian God a bad name, and even broadly or generically pointing to Him or scripture: I'm happy. If it sends a seeker to or deeper into the Word? Yay! They will then be exposed to and find the Truth.

I suppose one danger is if bad/weird theology confuses or discourages seekers or young Christians.

The Red Sea lyrics combined with the style of the song sound a little too much like a Whitesnake come-on song to me.

For those unfamiliar:

I guess Im like Frozen Fire where ignorance is bliss (until it isnt). I was born and raised in the Non Demoninational Christian Church, I know what I believe but have never dove into specific Theologies. I will listen to Catholic bands, reformed bands etc. 99% of my music listening is while Im working, driving or working out so I cant really concentrate on the lyrics to that level anyhow. 
My 2 biggest criteria on music to avoid are:
1. Something blasphemous or outright denying Jesus, mocking God and swearing, I can tolerate maybe 1 word in an album but past that I just choose not to do it.
2. If I read or hear about something said by a band member that goes against fundamental things or the Bible.
     examples: Neal Morse and the Trinity, Seventh Angel saying they no longer stand by there old ablbums lyric wise and other bands that have walked away from their Faith all together cough cough Believer (this one makes me sad since those 3 albums were a biog part of my teenage years. The latter makinging it harder to even listen to the old albums.

As you guys know I do alot of surfing around for new music and thanks to the interwebs you can read alot about a band (usually) to atleast give a good idea about them. I always try to see if possible which band mamber writes the lyrics and that tells me alot.

Just my 2 cents thats probably worth less  .