Larry Norman's Life

As I've been discovering Larry Norman's music these past few weeks, I've read a bit about him and watched some videos. It seems he lead quite a double life. Are any of us familiar with him and verify this material? I love having Christian musicians to look up to as Christians as well. On the flip side, it's discouraging when you find out that some of your musical heroes lead carnal lives.

It's hard to verify but there's enough reports of some off behavior I'd bet some is true. I don't make them my heroes, learned early on too many were playing a game.

I’d often rather not know the details of my favorite Christian musicians’ personal lives. Nor, for that matter, their theology beyond their lyrics.

One thing to keep in mind:

God spoke prophecies about Christ through the mouth of a false prophet (Balaam), and God spoke to Balaam through his donkey. God can speak truth through artists whose lives don’t match what they preach. Not excusing their behavior, but giving the credit for any good to God.

He also warned against such people. It's a fine line for sure.

Black Rider wrote:He also warned against such people. It's a fine line for sure.

Right. There’s no defending such behavior, and if they’re part of a church they should be disciplined. I just meant that it’s not inherently necessary to throw out all their work.

It’s also hard because you have backsliding and then you have those who never were believers in the first place. Dunno which one LN was; this is just a general comment.

Way back when at a Crucified concert I got to talk a little to Salomon and asked him if the temptations on the road were tough? He said I didn't want to know what bands were doing and how many were doing it because they couldn't make it in secular music. I know that's why Beeman started Sanctuary.

Black Rider wrote:Way back when at a Crucified concert I got to talk a little to Salomon and asked him if the temptations on the road were tough? He said I didn't want to know what bands were doing and how many were doing it because they couldn't make it in secular music. I know that's why Beeman started Sanctuary.

He started it for bands who couldn’t make it in the secular scene or because other bands weren’t genuine?

I appreciate all the comments above, some great perspectives to keep in mind that I identify with.

With Larry, the one thing I find interesting is how, with he and other popular figures, their failures and struggles are often lauded as making them more true believers. Similarly I find that often with Christians who love Johnny Cash.

I'd prefer to avoid both extremes of demonizing and idolizing artists we don't really know especially when what I often know is gossip or surface level stories. For as much as I could know about Larry because the time he rose to fame was so controversial, there are probably a hundred times the bad stories I could never know from obscure artists I listen to.

Frozen Fire wrote:I appreciate all the comments above, some great perspectives to keep in mind that I identify with.

With Larry, the one thing I find interesting is how, with he and other popular figures, their failures and struggles are often lauded as making them more true believers. Similarly I find that often with Christians who love Johnny Cash.

I'd prefer to avoid both extremes of demonizing and idolizing artists we don't really know especially when what I often know is gossip or surface level stories. For as much as I could know about Larry because the time he rose to fame was so controversial, there are probably a hundred times the bad stories I could never know from obscure artists I listen to.

Yeah, I’ve noticed that in other instances, and it’s disturbing. It fits the current zeitgeist, but it’s not biblical.

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:Way back when at a Crucified concert I got to talk a little to Salomon and asked him if the temptations on the road were tough? He said I didn't want to know what bands were doing and how many were doing it because they couldn't make it in secular music. I know that's why Beeman started Sanctuary.

He started it for bands who couldn’t make it in the secular scene or because other bands weren’t genuine?

He started it to disciple the young believers in the bands.

Black Rider wrote:

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:Way back when at a Crucified concert I got to talk a little to Salomon and asked him if the temptations on the road were tough? He said I didn't want to know what bands were doing and how many were doing it because they couldn't make it in secular music. I know that's why Beeman started Sanctuary.

He started it for bands who couldn’t make it in the secular scene or because other bands weren’t genuine?

He started it to disciple the young believers in the bands.

Gotcha. That’s what I thought you meant, but I was confused. (Probably because I needed a nap).

crucifyd wrote:Forget musicians, look up to Jesus.

Exactly.  Although, it's hard to do sometimes, because when we/I love certain albums so much we/I start to idolize the band.  We're all fallible, even the best band in the world!  I think a good leveller is to (as crucifyd has said) look up to Jesus.  That way our focus is on Him not on anyone else.  God gave them their talents, and we should praise God that they have used them for Him.

Which is all well and good but the world sees this kind of stuff and turns away due to the hypocrisy.

Thanks for all the comments. Most of you have a more direct connection to the Christian music scene than I ever will. I think the only pro musicians I have ever met in person are Mike Portnoy (for 15 seconds when he signed a drum skin for us) and Phil Keaggy (1 minute meeting in a hallway after a concert). 

I agree with most everything that has been said. Larry Norman's hypocrisy isn't going to shake my belief at all. David Ellefson's digital tryst with a teen bothered me but not very much. I get annoyed at Michael Sweet using crass language in a Guitar World interview, but it doesn't erase the historical fact of the resurrection.

However, I think the assertion, "Forget musicians, just look to Jesus" is not quite biblical nor reflects reality. Fellowship and mutual discipleship is built into the fabric of Christianity.  The correlation between influence and character is--in contrast with much of secular culture--taught and assumed in Scripture. Because I know that most of you agree wholeheartedly with this, I won't detail this out unless someone wants me to.

Ultimately, Scripture does call me to be responsible for my actions and not everyone else's. From the viewpoint of a music fan, I cannot justify walking away from Christianity because my favourite musicians are hypocrities. But from the viewpoint of a musician, I can't justify being a hypocrite and ignoring the responsibilities of greater influence.

Once again, Steve Taylor hits the nail on the head. (And hits me too with his line "If you don't die to yourself, pride kills"). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ob1wN7KnSU

Sevenoneself wrote:However, I think the assertion, "Forget musicians, just look to Jesus" is not quite biblical nor reflects reality.

Seven, do tell...

Sevenoneself wrote: Fellowship and mutual discipleship is built into the fabric of Christianity.  The correlation between influence and character is--in contrast with much of secular culture--taught and assumed in Scripture. Because I know that most of you agree wholeheartedly with this, I won't detail this out unless someone wants me to.

Not sure I'm reading you right but the "relationship" of musicians and their (cringy word) "fans" is so limited that using the word "relationship", in the way we usually think of it, to describe it is in itself a stretch. I don't think it even qualifies. I'm certainly not suggesting that the artists shouldn't wield the influence they have with care and do all they can to keep there character in tact, they should.  What I am saying is that we, the people watching them, should keep them in proper perspective. If you could actually see enough of their life, they would let you down.

Seven, maybe some detailing?

This brings up some good questions.  I think a big factor in this question is why one listens to Christian music in the first place.  For some it's just purely entertainment that can be enjoyed with a clear conscience.  Others find spiritual edification through the music/lyrics and it draws their attention towards God.  And depending on one's stance on that... theology then comes into play.  I'll use myself as an example:  While listening to music is most certainly entertainment for me, I do also find much more enjoyment from it when I know it's edifying, God-honoring, and can help draw my thoughts toward God and His goodness, etc.  Now, couple that with my understanding of God's sovereignty, His promises to finish His work within us, and therefore the "once saved, always saved" belief... if someone is showing longterm and continuous refusal of repentance, that's a good indicator they were never a believer to begin with.  While as mentioned, God can and does use nonbelievers for His glory, I don't think it wise to go searching for nuggets of spiritual truth from nonbelievers.  (I've had a similar conversation regarding The Chosen tv show with a good friend... but that's for another thread!)  So I'll generally avoid "Christian" music from folks who don't walk the walk because it negates the reason I am drawn to Christian music in the first place.

Crucifyd, I'm beginning my assertion by first backing away from the musician/listener (not "fan"!  ) and seeing what God desires from believers. And then we apply that teaching to the world of music/bands/listeners. 

God always cares about character more than accomplishments. The fruit of the spirit is not a larger pastoral platform, it's--in a nutshell--character and emotional/mental/spiritual fulfillment. God did not remove Saul as king primarily b/c of actions, but b/c of the character behind the actions. Ravi Zacharias was praised for his Christian accomplishments, but ultimately much of it was negated b/c of his hypocrisy.

Because God's morality is intertwined with humanity, we see this in real life as well. A guy marries his wife b/c she's the hottest girl in the room, but they divorce a year later b/c her character is so shallow they can't get along. Jimmy Baker doesn't fall from grace b/c he had a one-night stand, but because for years he had allowed the pull of Christian influence to take over his life to the point that he was a complete hypocrite whenever he was out of the public eye ("I Was Wrong" chronicles this).  

God also teaches that for every believer, a higher level of morality and character is required with influence and power. James--let not many of you presume to be teachers, for they will be judged more strictly. Church leaders have a higher standard of character to maintain. The consequences of sin for kings in the OT was higher than for the average person.

And this is all taught in the backdrop that the church is a community of people seeking God together. Character was always as important as influence/platform size. Paul openly commanded believers to imitate him as he imitated Christ. Titus was commanded to have such a high character that he could not be criticized for it. Timothy the same. In various passages we are taught that Christian's character is as important in evangelism as the proclaiming of the gospel. And on and on. 

So now to apply these principles to Christian musicians:
Christian musicians--to the degree of popularity--have chosen to have a great influence and fame than not. They can and should be expected to have a higher character. The ones who are more outspoken about their faith would have a higher responsibility. Larry Norman spoke explicitly about the moral changes that happen when you become a Christian; he can be expected, by the church community, to live it out.

As listeners, we should be able to desire--in a balance way--to emulate the life and actions of Christians musicians. We cannot use their hypocrisy as an excuse for our own Christian life, but we should expect to grow in godliness and Christian love as we follow the lyrics and lives of Christian bands.

An example from real life; not a musician, but an entertainer: Just yesterday I was listening to a sermon by Christian comedian Ken Davis. He spoke about how God--through a series of events, including a major conflict--showed him that he needed to be a part of church life (as a traveling comedian, he was rarely in church on Sundays and never a part of any Bible study group). So he committed to being in his home church twice every month. It cost him a considerable amount of monetary gain and influence, as he had to cut his touring schedule by nearly 1/2. But he gained character and godliness by increasing his engagement with other Christians and his spiritual leaders in his church.

I don't want to make light of individual circumstances, abuse from leaders like pastors and record label execs, economic situations, etc. Everything I have said needs to be tempered and taken in balance. And it's more important for people to be heading in the right direction, not just where they are at the present.

Does this make sense, Crucifyd? I think we are probably closer on this than we think, but I need to understand where your perspective better, and hopefully now you understand mine as well.

Kerrick's post came through while I was still writing mine. Lots of good stuff in there that's different from what I was sharing. Thanks Kerrick, I do feel the same way.

I think one issue is that we probably shouldn’t consider random musicians whom we’ve never met to be teachers and leaders of the church. They’re usually not the qualified for that role. Again, not denying that their lyrics can be edifying nor that they should be rebuked and disciplined for their behavior, but don’t invest them with more authority than you should. Look for edification in the Word and from godly teachers whom God has appointed for his flock.

Pethead wrote:I think one issue is that we probably shouldn’t consider random musicians whom we’ve never met to be teachers and leaders of the church. They’re usually not the qualified for that role. Again, not denying that their lyrics can be edifying nor that they should be rebuked and disciplined for their behavior, but don’t invest them with more authority than you should. Look for edification in the Word and from godly teachers whom God has appointed for his flock.

Good point. Although I believe my assertions in my LONGGGGGGG post above are true and biblical, the application of them needs to be balanced with the good points that Crucifyd and a few others have made above.

Sevenoneself wrote:However, I think the assertion, "Forget musicians, just look to Jesus" is not quite biblical nor reflects reality.

Did you expand on this specifically? or was it in the whole answer. I may be slow...

My point here was not that you should be a monk (not biblical) and be an ignoring, shunning, misanthropist (also no biblical) but rather, in the same vein as "hating your mother and father for Christ", to "forget" musicians in favor of Christ.

Sevenoneself wrote:Does this make sense, Crucifyd? I think we are probably closer on this than we think, but I need to understand where your perspective better, and hopefully now you understand mine as well.

Honestly, I'm not sure I follow the whole thing. I get bits of what you are saying.

I'm not sure what you mean by "The fruit of the spirit is not a larger pastoral platform".

I get what you're saying about higher influence, however, as I recall, the context is church leadership. My initial reaction is to think you can't apply this to just any kind of leadership from this text. Is there somewhere you have in mind that speaks to general kinds of leadership, outside the church, being held to higher account?

Pethead wrote:I think one issue is that we probably shouldn’t consider random musicians whom we’ve never met to be teachers and leaders of the church. They’re usually not the qualified for that role. Again, not denying that their lyrics can be edifying nor that they should be rebuked and disciplined for their behavior, but don’t invest them with more authority than you should. Look for edification in the Word and from godly teachers whom God has appointed for his flock.

This.

Musicians are not qualified and, by definition, also not actually in that role.
Even if said performer also happens to actually be an actual pastor somewhere, if you are not regularly attending the church he is the pastor of, he is NOT your pastor.

A related aspect, especially back in the genesis of the whole movement in the 80's,  is that all the up and comers were usually no older than mid-20's. The Crucified started out at 14-16ish. Many (most?) were also often new converts, maybe still riding a wave of emotion or whatever other issues might come with it. Same with up and comers of today. It seems to me that biblically a pastor should be a married man with a good chunk of life experience, among other things, specified in the scripture.