Marduk Rom. 5:12

by messiaen77 Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:26 pm

I just heard a Bible scholar give a presentation on this album as an nihilistic exegesis of this verse (meaning one that focuses solely on the verse without taking the later talk of Christ into account). Thoughts?

by Guest Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:24 pm

Marduk is one band that I just can't get into. I guess because they are truly satanic. Just rubs me the wrong way. I don't even care for their music to be honest. Something doesn't feel right to me.

I don't judge anyone who does listen to Marduk though. What do they mean by titling their album a Bible verse?

by ThomasEversole Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:42 pm

I'm a huge fan of Marduk. Mortuus is probably THE BEST black metal vocalist in the scene. My favorite album Wormwood has several Biblical references.

"Take and eat ye all of this; For this is my Body
O Death - where is thy sting? O Grave - where is thy victory?"
...is the first bit of lyrics from This Fleshly Void.

The song Whorecrown actually has a clip from a preacher speaking in it, talking about the movement of God. Even the insert states that the album was recorded "in the Year of the Lord 2009".

I think the band trying to make a theme niche as a morbid corrupt preacher? Still, looking to Marduk for pro-Christian lyrics is like looking to a deli as a place where fights break out.

Behemoth's "The Satanist" album actually does something similar lyrically. The chorus to "Ora Pro Nobis Lucifer" is

For thine is the kingdom,
And the power.

For thine is the kingdom,
And the glory,
Forever.

...obviously in regards to Satan.

Back to the topic, I love Marduk's lyrics. They're ghoulish. Morbid. Jolly good fun. ...like a horror movie. Anyone who watches horror and hates/condemns it because it's pro murder/etc. then... they're watching horror movies wrong.

...and now a Family Guy quote.

Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous! How dare he say such blasphemy! I've got to do something!!!
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor...

A good chunk of this is tongue in cheek, but it does make me want to say a big fat "You're doing it wrong" whenever someone tries to make an ordeal over how "wrong" something is when its not even close to being a serious Christian context, and not even close to being "right" or is even intended that.

Like, its already obvious - why make an ordeal about it?
I want truth, encouragement and joy in my faith based messages.
...not dispute and contempt for something that's obviously not truth.

by Guest Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:55 pm

Hey Thomas. I am not that familiar with Marduk. I've never owned an album. I only heard one song. I'm not condemning them or anyone who listens to them.

I was just saying that it felt 'wrong' for my spirit for some reason. But then I also know that the lead singer is truly a Satanist too. Which makes sense. Know what I mean?

by Throne of thorns Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:21 pm

Early Marduk is ok I only own one album from them and I barely listen to it.

by ThomasEversole Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:27 pm

RavenWolf wrote:Hey Thomas. I am not that familiar with Marduk. I've never owned an album. I only heard one song. I'm not condemning them or anyone who listens to them.

I was just saying that it felt 'wrong' for my spirit for some reason. But then I also know that the lead singer is truly a Satanist too. Which makes sense. Know what I mean?

Oh yeah bro, makes perfect sense. I totally get not listening to a band for those reasons. Smile

by messiaen77 Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:31 pm

Hey Thomas, maybe I wasn't being clear. That verse is

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Her point is that the whole album is a big ol' commentary on the universality of death owing to the consequence of sin. She viewed it as similar to a conservative Lutheran/Reformed reading of the verse that dwells in the darker parts of Scripture rather than glossing over them to get on to the happy parts. She in no way talked about it as being Christian or even being pro-Christian in its context. She also notes the mockery and blasphemy in several parts.

The lyrics are poetically great and quite interesting as a worldview. Musically, it is intense.

by Guest Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:46 pm

I might have to check them out sometime.

by ThomasEversole Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:50 pm

Wow. I'm eating my hat from my first post then. I totally assumed that preacher in church referencing Marduk would have been just one big attack-fest. That was wrong of me!

Sounds like that pastor has an awesome outlook. Is she local? Televised?

by sentient 6 Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:20 pm

...i'm wondering if the guys from Marduk even understood Pauls complete point.
¹⁵But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. ¹⁶And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. ¹⁷For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

...I just hope the Bible scholar does.

by sentient 6 Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:32 pm

But actually, I think Marduk is a great band musically and the vocals are really good for this genre. There is just too much darkness in their art for me to enjoy them though.

I checked out lyrics, but I really i'm trying figure out their use of Romans 5:12 in their overall context of lyrics. Like I said before though, I hope one day they keep on reading about the rest of the story.

by lhversaw Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:38 pm

I have NEVER listened to Marduk and I never will. Satanic bands just have no place in my ears. I know that some feel that it is ok to listen to satanic music even though they are Christians, which I can't understand why a Christian would want to listen to music that is completely blaspheming their God and their faith, But each to his own. It isn't for me and quite frankly it makes me sick.

by ThomasEversole Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:14 pm

This is more covered in the other Secular Lyrics thread, but to me, the difference is cut and dry.

Christians who can't enjoy any anti-Christian bands see their lyrics as very powerful, very serious and literal destruction to Christianity.
Christians who can enjoy any anti-Christian bands see their lyrics as not powerful, not serious and not literal and are just (very) dark fantasy and its all a scary story.

My opinion, investing in satanic black metal as a source of truth is like investing in a B horror movie as an actual account of real murders that took place.

We can agree to disagree though, and I respect those who stay away from it and those (like myself) who enjoy it.

sentient 6 wrote:But actually, I think Marduk is a great band musically and the vocals are really good for this genre. There is just too much darkness in their art for me to enjoy them though.

I checked out lyrics, but I really i'm trying figure out their use of Romans 5:12 in their overall context of lyrics. Like I said before though, I hope one day they keep on reading about the rest of the story.

The band is too dark for a lot of people to listen to, so that reaction is normal. Their use of the Rom 5:12 title isn't to encompass the lyrical theme. Again, don't take it literally or scripturally.

Just think of it that they called the album Rom 5:12 because naming the album "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" wouldn't fit on the front cover without taking up too much room.

by Guest Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:35 am

ThomasEversole wrote:This is more covered in the other Secular Lyrics thread, but to me, the difference is cut and dry.

Christians who can't enjoy any anti-Christian bands see their lyrics as very powerful, very serious and literal destruction to Christianity.
Christians who can enjoy any anti-Christian bands see their lyrics as not powerful, not serious and not literal and are just (very) dark fantasy and its all a scary story.

My opinion, investing in satanic black metal as a source of truth is like investing in a B horror movie as an actual account of real murders that took place.

We can agree to disagree though, and I respect those who stay away from it and those (like myself) who enjoy it.

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:11 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:
Christians who can't enjoy any anti-Christian bands see their lyrics as very powerful, very serious and literal destruction to Christianity.

I just can't compartmentalize myself like that. Nor would I want too.

I don't separate my entertainment choices from the rest of my being. Maybe i'm different than some other people. But I may like a song artistically such as Slayers " God hates us all, " but I really don't want that idea rattling around in my head the rest of the day. Even though I know I don't agree with the sentiment.

by WildWorld Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:15 pm

Is this presentation online anywhere? I'm not familiar with the album, or any of Marduk's stuff for that matter, but it still sounds interesting.

by ThomasEversole Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:50 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
I don't separate my entertainment choices from the rest of my being. Maybe i'm different than some other people. But I may like a song artistically such as Slayers " God hates us all, " but I really don't want that idea rattling around in my head the rest of the day. Even though I know I don't agree with the sentiment.

Fiction and fantasy both are outside the rest of "your being".
No one who's ever watched Lord of the Rings has then made it a life goal to ride giant eagles and find talking tree people.

If NOT REAL fiction and fantasy fills your head with REAL ideas, then you need to stay away from it.
...and its no more compartmentalizing to enjoy entertainment opposite to life than it is to process that same entertainment literally on life's terms.

by Guest Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:28 pm

Very good point bro! One that a lot of people would do well to understand. The music we listen to (speaking specifically about you and I and stuff like Black Metal, etc), is fantasy for us. We don't even think about it any other way. I guess some people just can 'seperate' the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. I'm not putting anyone down - but I know that what you said makes a lot of sense to me.

I specifically remember one time when I was driving my truck in Colorado and I was listening to Cradle of Filth. As the Bible says to do in 1 Thessalonians, I always try to 'pray without ceasing'. In other words ... I have an 'attitude' of prayer. So ... while I was listening to Cradle ... I began to pray.

Then I realized ... whoops. I'm listening to Cradle. I better not pray right now ... that would be blasphemous.

I immediately then heard a 'still small voice' deep within me. It said "Do you think by you listening to Cradle, or any other band of this nature that it makes me fall off of my throne?" ... I said 'no, of course not!'. The voice then said ... "Pray while you listen to this band - and I will recommend that you listen to this band. It is not a sin for you to do so. Pray for them. For their lives. Pray that they would be drawn by my Spirit, unto Me. This will actually turn what could be negative into something productive and positive as a Christian soldier"

I'll never forget that moment. It was as if someone really spoke to me, though I did not hear an audible voice.

So for me ... listening to bands like Cradle or Slayer ... have become a very spiritual and great time! I also view them as 'fantasy and fiction', so it doesn't hurt my spirit in the least. Those who are afraid of damaging their spirit by listening to dark fiction or fantasy just need to learn how to separate the two like you explained.

Some people can't - and I do not judge them as wrong. But I certainly agree with you here on this issue bro!

by WildWorld Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:45 am

That's actually a good idea RW. Even if you cant listen to bands like that, we should focus more on praying for them rather than condemning them. After all, even if they hate God, God still does love them and wants them to embrace His love for them.

by Guest Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:24 am

WildWorld wrote:That's actually a good idea RW. Even if you cant listen to bands like that, we should focus more on praying for them rather than condemning them. After all, even if they hate God, God still does love them and wants them to embrace His love for them.

Exactly! And I figure .. if God loves them - I should too!

cheers

by Hardcore Christian Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:40 am

(First off I would never listen to a Satanic band, to me its not right. Anyway that was previously stated and I am in the same boat as others above.)

Another thing that has always worried me is Christians who listen to this Satanic stuff, because I had friend who had the same life style, he listened to all types of black metal, Satanic and Christian, and he told himself that the Satanic bands were a joke and didnt take them seriously.
More recently he became a Atheist, is now the lead singer of his own Satanic band, said he was dabbling in Wicca and posted all sorts of offensive stuff towards Christians on Facebook.

Anyway, Im not saying that if you listen to Satanic music, you will do that. That is just the reason, I cant even think of listening to such music. (And I pray for you guys who do listen cause, you never know when someone would/will go off the deep end.)

by Guest Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:31 am

I like musically Marduk, but sure their lyrics are a problem.
This last time they're trying to be more "acceptable", but i've not followed their work since several albums...

by strangerhoncho Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:56 am

Marduk does a cover of "Oil on Panel" by Woven Hand, fronted by David Eugene Edwards who has some of the most godly lyrics around. The song has lyrics like "Yeshua, Yeshua, Where you go take me with thee." So those of you who won't listen to satanic bands can at least listen to that song!

I suspect Marduk is simply fascinated by Satan AND God. As many metal bands are.

by sentient 6 Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:58 pm

Guest wrote:Very good point bro! One that a lot of people would do well to understand. The music we listen to (speaking specifically about you and I and stuff like Black Metal, etc), is fantasy for us. We don't even think about it any other way. I guess some people just can 'seperate' the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. I'm not putting anyone down - but I know that what you said makes a lot of sense to me.

My view on this is not as simplistic as some would make it out to be. I don't see anything wrong with a Christian wishing to " escape " for a couple hours by entertaining themselves with a movie or some music. I do watch movies with violence such as Saving Private Ryan or the Lord of the Rings series. There is violence in those movies....no doubt about it. But I like my entertainment to have a redeeming quality to it. For instance I see a big difference between the violence in a War movie, Lord of the Rings over say, Saw, Evil Dead or Deadpool. What is the purpose for the violence ? Does the story encourage bravery or some other good qualities in the characters ? Is there a struggle between good and evil that is clear cut, or is it just a movie showing evil without some kind of solution ? Is there crude content for the sake of being crude ? Those are just a few of the things I look at when deciding what kind of movies or TV I may watch. I don't not watch movies such as Hostel or Evil Dead because I think they may " influence " me or something along those lines. But simply because I don't care to " escape " into those kinds of worlds.

by sentient 6 Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:11 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:

Fiction and fantasy both are outside the rest of "your being".
No one who's ever watched Lord of the Rings has then made it a life goal to ride giant eagles and find talking tree people.

If NOT REAL fiction and fantasy fills your head with REAL ideas, then you need to stay away from it.
...and its no more compartmentalizing to enjoy entertainment opposite to life than it is to process that same entertainment literally on life's terms.

Once again, I am not opposed to watching something that is fantasy based or even violent or with " evil " characters. But I do see a difference in movies in how they portray the purpose for the violence and evil. My wife is not a Christian and she gets me to watch all kinds of movies that I personally wouldn't have chosen to watch for myself. But usually after its over I mostly find myself thinking I just watched garbage and wasted two hours. And also we would have been better off spending those two hours doing something else.

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