Lets discuss free speech(absolutism vs limits).

Curious what everyone's thoughts are on the concept and issue of free speech?
I am a free speech absolutist. To be clear on what that means, it simply means defending anyone and everyone...every individual and every collectives right to hold any opinion and Express any opinion however and whenever and wherever they wish, as well as freedom of artistic expression. Free speech absolutists do not believe(generally) what our opponents think, that this means there should be zero reasonable limits or consequences. We believe that clearly ethical norms and laws against threats of direct violence and intimidation, slander/defamation/libel/character assassination and connected to this- false accusations....against individuals are reasonable rules and laws, as are things such as noise laws and rules.
Aside from that....anything goes. And no one has the right to silence, censor, ban, deplatform,etc., anyone and their opinions from being expressed and discussed/debated freely. And they certainly don't have the right to bully *authorities* into doing this for them(or visa versa, *authorities* using people or mobs to silence those they arbitrarily think should not be allowed to have an express an opinion they don't like or agree with).
Free speech is the cornerstone of a free society and world, it is the fundamental individual inalienable right and liberty(well actually freedom of thought/opinion/conscience is, but free speech is the outward expression of this) from which all other libertaries and rights flow and are derived(freedom of association/affiliation assembly, peaceful protest/dissent, etc).
Without this absolute free speech....there is no free speech at all...nor the other fundamental individual and collective liberties and rights....only varying degrees and types of repression/oppression and totalitarian control of such.
And anyone that supports this righr/liberty only for themselves and their own...but not also for people they strongly dislike(or even hate) and views they strongly disagree with/disapprove of or find abhorrent...don't believe in the right/liberty AT ALL! There is no middle ground, either you support it or you oppose it and arwpe part of the totalitarian thought control machine.
Today we have arbitrary and confused rules and laws under the guise of *hate speech* and various newspeak laws...pushed on us by progressivists/SJWs/neoliberals/neomarxists and globalists, but we also still have SOME on the religious right(they used to be much worse in this, now not as many of them are to the same degree, but some are)and neocons...whom want obscenity laws and blasphemy laws and other rules and laws based on their religious biases. Both arbitrarily want to silence anyone and anything they find *offensive*.
Both need be opposed by lovers of the God/nature given right of fundamental individual liberty and inalienable rights.

As Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote(misattributed to Voltaire)- *I disagree with what you have to say, but will defend to the death your right to say it*.

And Noam Chomsky- *as regards free speech, you either support it for those you disagree with or you support communist/fascist standards*(paraphrasing him here, more or less).

And as my hero Thomas Paine wrote-
*You will do me the justice to remember, that I have always strenuously supported the right of every man to his opinion, however that opinion might be to mine. He who denies to another this right makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it.
Thw most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is REASON. I have never used any other and I trust I never shall*

Actor/artist and intellectual Stephen Fry made a comment about those who want things silenced because *offended*...and said of thus refrain that it is nothing more than a whine...*I'm offended*...to which he said *well...so f-ing what!*(I'm paraphrasing as I cant recall the exact quote off hand)

And the great Christopher Hitchens made many a brilliant statement and speecg on the importance of this free speech absolutist principle, none of which I recall off hand, but one only need to Google or YouTube(several speeches he gave on the subject) Christopher Hitchens on free speech, to find some very illuminating, insightful, witty, and wise thoughts on its importance.

I am a free speech absolutist.
Are you?
I believe in free speech for even those I despise and views I find abhorrent, and all forms of artistic expression whether I like them or not.
Do you?

Let the discussions/debates commence

I hear this from leftists all the time: "Right-wingers do it TOO!!". The thing about the "religious right" argument is that this isn't the 1980s anymore. Look around at our decaying culture. I'd like these lefties to point something out to me. What conservative/religious/Christian forces do they see at work over the last 20-30 years in western culture? Do we see the nuclear family glamorized? Do we see patriotism romanticized? Do we see Christianity portrayed fairly, or do we see it constantly ridiculed and mocked? Do we see mental health taken seriously, or do we see the delusional and deranged given a political cudgel?

The whole reason we're experiencing this faux-60's "civil rights" resurgance, is that globalists know how to destabilize a society. They use (bowel) movements like marxism, communism, socialism, islam, feminism or whatever else they can convince "progressives" needs to be "championed". The Right still have their problems (RINOS anyone?), but it's the modern Left that subscribe to all these counterfeit ideologies, and are the main proponents of the censorship and mask-worship we're experiencing.

Anyway, I agree with you on the free speech issue. Having that right means others do as well. Of course people should always think "just because I CAN doesn't mean I SHOULD", before saying certain things. That goes along with being an adult. However, we can't legislate away bad manners and bubble-wrap all the edges of society, just so a few might not be "offended". I'm tired of having to suspend my disbelief before I interact with the world due to some new "victim" class trying to change the rules of reality!

We need more "adversity training", not "diversity training".

People need to wake up to the dangerous absurdities that are slowly eroding rational thought.

UltraMagnus wrote:I hear this from leftists all the time: "Right-wingers do it TOO!!". The thing about the "religious right" argument is that this isn't the 1980s anymore. Look around at our decaying culture. I'd like these lefties to point something out to me. What conservative/religious/Christian forces do they see at work over the last 20-30 years in western culture? Do we see the nuclear family glamorized? Do we see patriotism romanticized? Do we see Christianity portrayed fairly, or do we see it constantly ridiculed and mocked? Do we see mental health taken seriously, or do we see the delusional and deranged given a political cudgel?

The whole reason we're experiencing this faux-60's "civil rights" resurgance, is that globalists know how to destabilize a society. They use (bowel) movements like marxism, communism, socialism, islam, feminism or whatever else they can convince "progressives" needs to be "championed". The Right still have their problems (RINOS anyone?), but it's the modern Left that subscribe to all these counterfeit ideologies, and are the main proponents of the censorship and mask-worship we're experiencing.

Anyway, I agree with you on the free speech issue. Having that right means others do as well. Of course people should always think "just because I CAN doesn't mean I SHOULD", before saying certain things. That goes along with being an adult. However, we can't legislate away bad manners and bubble-wrap all the edges of society, just so a few might not be "offended". I'm tired of having to suspend my disbelief before I interact with the world due to some new "victim" class trying to change the rules of reality!

We need more "adversity training", not "diversity training".

People need to wake up to the dangerous absurdities that are slowly eroding rational thought.

(Bowel) movements, lol! Brilliant, I may use that. I'm with you on that. They are cancerous ideologies. I support their free speech of course(sad they don't support mine...or anyone else's that isnt 100% in line with them) but their views are insane and need to be counted, exposed, and their monopoly on culture and institutions(academe and even k-12 public schools, Hollywood/entertainment industry, MSM, major corporations, tech industry and the technocrats, the entire leftist establishment and the neocon/rhinos to a certain extent and globalism) needs to be broken.

Right wingers USED to do it to a much greater extent than they do now. The religious right has for the most part learned from their past puritanism ...I give them credit for this(but it did take a long time for them to do so, hopefully in a few decades the left will also learn from theirs, I just hope by that point the right/religious right don't forget the lessons they learned and regress again themselves...we shall see).
I will say this , no we don't see any of those things you mentioned glamorized or romanticized or christianity portrayed fairly anymore , and that's a shame.
Especially the nuclear family, which I, as a nonreligious person, a person of reason believe is an important institution(not the only valid way of going about *family*, but all things considered, barring strong dysfunction in it....which in such cases...other forms of family despite their natural shortcomings...are nonetheless healthier for kids than a dysfunctional or abusive or neglectful nuclear family. But all things being equalized a functional and loving nuclear family is still healthier and better for children and everyone than even loving and functional other forms of family and upbringing...since that nuclear family unit is the natural one).
I will say this, while academe, Hollywood/entertainment industry, SJW and feminist infested major corporations, the left establishment are pissing all over those things you mentioned, the right doesnt...its just that right now the right are ignored...or scapegoated and demonized by all those major cultural institutions and pop culture, making it an uphill battle for us(I say us, I'm a libertarian centrist but I lean conservatarian on many issues, classically center left in a few, but I do lean center right in more, and I currently am allied with the new conservatarian right and even the alt-lite to an extent...altlite...not alt-right) currently and as of the last couple decades.
But the new right and its reps ...such as Trump(who I count as a libertarian or conservatarians more than a traditional conservative) and leaders of trumpian spirit across the world(Maxime Bernier in Canada where I live, our Trump)....our values are rising again, and thing is I think a silence but ever more vocal majority are on our side, it's just their voices are ignored, silenced, banned, and demonized by pop culture institutions and by the globalists and their puppet politicians(left...mostly but also legacy establishment neocon rhino right to some extent).
As for mental health being taken seriously? I'd say perhaps it's taken too seriously in some ways by their culture, they make up new ones every day it seems(not that some arent real and serious of course, some are) as an excuse and they do focus alot on that.

Christian/religious forces over last 20-30 years? Well, I mean there was the satanic panic and all the witchhunt horrors that came out of it in the 80s/90s(and some religious righters donseem to be raising its spectre a bit again today, alot is currently coming from Qanon and its supporters...which btw I am one....but this trend in it does concern me a bit)...of course that was equally the fault of the religious left as of the religious righr(Tipper Gore, head of the Washington wives PMRC was/is a democrat after all, and many of the MSM and day time talk show circuit of the time that pushed it as much as the *religious right* were on the left or at least Democrats and neoliberals)...slot of people forget that it was not just the religious *right* behind that hysteria...but it was involved....largely.
Then there was the religious right during Dubyas(Bush) admin time, during his invasion of Iraq and patriot act stuff, after the inside job of 9/11, there was alot of religious right political correctness and witch hunt stuff(remember *freedom fries*? Remember the Dixie Chicks cds being destroyed en masse after criticizing Bush? Remember the fervor of america being a *Christian nation* at war with Islam...a new *crusade*? And I could give a number of other examples but this should suffice for now)...this was only 15 years ago.

But in agree that at the moment it is mainly the *progressivist* and neomarxist left that is the issue. But I also remain ever aware thar they as their alt-right and the neocon/rhino right arw all controlled opposition controlled by the same masters of the NWO(these elites always try and control and fund both major controlled opposition sides...divide and conquer...to create their one world globalist govt agenda. They control the establishment left and establishment right, but not the independent right or independent left...and they dont control the anti globalist outsiders...like Trump and Bernier,etc).

Anyways I get where your coming from completely, I feel ya.
I agree with you in principle.

Also *adversity training* not *diversity training*. I likes

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I think for the most part in this/these issue(s) we're on the same page.

Ultramagnus.
I will add another thought on the claim that Christianity isn't fairly or positively portrayed and is persecuted.
I think there is a bit of a tendency of conservative and/or fundamentalist/evangelical Christians(particularly protestant) ones to equate negative portrayal or criticism of or not strongly positive portrayal of or praise of conservative and/or fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity/Christians as negative portrayal of or unfairness towards or criticism of Christianity in and of itself and all Christians.
While pop culture and the entertainment industry and so on may level such criticism at that form of christianity/Christians disproportionately, it would be a bit of a exaggeration to say that therefore they are attacking Christianity/Christians in and of themselves.
There is plenty of positive portrayal of and fairness towards christianity and Christians....just mainly of the *liberal* and/or leftist kind. See the negativity is mainly politically oriented...not on Christianity in and of itself or any and all *Christians*.(though there is some of this).
Most celebrities(or many anyways) tend to call and consider themselves Christian's, most politicians too. Ceremonial Christianity is still given alot of prominence sociopolitical and in entertainment and so on.
Fundamentalist/evangelical Christians tend to think they and their subsects or type of christianity have a monopoly on christianity and on Christ(and on God) so they often times equate critique of them or their type of christianity as an attack and war on the religion in itself and on christ(and/or on God) and ALL Christians. This is a bit of a fallacy.

Also while they may pick on that form of christianity, their criticisms and/or mockery arent soley at it/them. I mean scientologists and scientology is another one, orthodox Judaism is too, as are LHP forms of occultism and things like satanism/luciferianism(if they get portrayed at all or given any attention..its still mostly negative).
Certainly some other religions arw given more favor(as are some nonreligions), but Christianity(just not the evangelical/fundamentalist or right wing or conservative types of it)is still given alot more positive portrayal and favor...at least ceremonially than alot of other religions and nonreligious...and their adherents.
And there are some shows, movies, entertainment and politicians that still give conservative and/or evangelical forms of christianity some positive portrayal...just not alot/many.

There is a bit of a tendency of right wing/conservative and/or evangelical/fundamentalist Christians to claim a monopoly on the religion and Christ (and by extension God as well) and to equate critique of them or their sects or version of the religion with an attack on the religion and on Christian's...in and of themselves.
I think alot of Christian's of other sects and types and nonchristian alike both are just kinda exasperated with and tired of that and of being told that if they arent evangelical/fundamentalists that they aren't Christian at all or don't respect or follow christ at all(and of nonchristian and people who arent particularly religious or at least not evangelical/fundamentalists in their interpretation thereof that therefore they are Anti-God or therefore are atheists or otherwise *ungodly*).

That said, I agree that yes, to a certain extent in certain contexts evangelicals do get a bit of an unfair exaggerated critique and double standards imposed on them and their version of their religion(to some extent though this is a reaction to decades and centuries of that version having had dominance and having imposed double standards on others).

As a Deist, imagine being a deist. We and our perspective are either completely ignored ...or we are lumped in by atheists and pseudo skeptics in establishment or entertainment with revealed religionists and made fun of or dismissed, or we have revealed religionists on the other hand often lumping us and our perspective in with atheism/atheists and pseudo skeptics/pseudo skepticism. For the most part we and our perspective are just overtly dismissed and ignored as if we and our perspective don't exist(or is a relic of the enlightenment era and no longer relevant at all). On the other hand we have some revealed religionists and theists trying to coopt us and our position in with them ...or we have some atheists and classical materialists dooing the same. Mostly we and our position are just dismissed and ignored ...or strawmanned to death, lol!

Most people aren't even aware or allowed to be aware that we and our perspective even exists. Everyone is aware of christianity and most of its subsects and types(as of other major religions and revealed religion
At least most people are still allowed to beware if your view and you are given both negative and positive portrayals, we're given nothing , lol!

But mostly it's all one big mixed bag.

My opinion on free speech, is "You can't say that!" isn't attacking free speech.  There's lots of things that for centuries, we aren't able to say (without consequences)

Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre (well that example made more sense before this year), or walking up to a random person and telling them you're going to shoot them in the @#$%ing face.  There are plenty of other instances where we're not really free to say certain things, nor "free" to say something at all in some situations.

I don't see a mandate or a directive of "silence" as being an attack on free speech at all.  (ie: the "No Talking" sign at the Library is not infringing on American rights any more than being told to "shut up" by a random person)

My opinion on what is an attack on free speech is, is being told what to say.  You HAVE to say what they tell you to say, thus sayeth the whatever.

Case in point, Canada's Bill C-16 page 18 states:

Gender-based harassment can involve: (5) Refusing to refer to a person by their self-identified name and proper personal pronoun.

So, you must say the words this elevated class of people command you to say to them, or there will be penalty under Canadian government law.

That my friends, is free speech, dying in hospice.

ThomasEversole wrote:My opinion on free speech, is "You can't say that!" isn't attacking free speech.  There's lots of things that for centuries, we aren't able to say (without consequences)

Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre (well that example made more sense before this year), or walking up to a random person and telling them you're going to shoot them in the @#$%ing face.  There are plenty of other instances where we're not really free to say certain things, nor "free" to say something at all in some situations.

I don't see a mandate or a directive of "silence" as being an attack on free speech at all.  (ie: the "No Talking" sign at the Library is not infringing on American rights any more than being told to "shut up" by a random person)

My opinion on what is an attack on free speech is, is being told what to say.  You HAVE to say what they tell you to say, thus sayeth the whatever.

Case in point, Canada's Bill C-16 page 18 states:

Gender-based harassment can involve: (5) Refusing to refer to a person by their self-identified name and proper personal pronoun.

So, you must say the words this elevated class of people command you to say to them, or there will be penalty under Canadian government law.

That my friends, is free speech, dying in hospice.

I live in Canada. Jordan Peterson(whose valiant fight for free speech and against compelled speech, which sparked alot of this) makes me proud. But our tool of a P.M. and his regime make me ashamed of my country.

As for yelling fire for no reason and uttering threats, agreed, except those arent so much a matter of free speech and arw reasonably covered by other laws. Free speech is soley about the freedom to have, hold, say, Express any opinion and to artistic freedoms, and also to not have compelled speech(or thought control and newspeak).

As for no talking signs at libraries and stuff. I think the issue there is loud talking(not about not talking at all or about what opinions you may or may not utter with another individual in quiet conversation,etc). Those arw moreso noise rules than what one can or cannot or must or must not say.

I see your nuances, I agree for most part. Again free speech is about being allowed to have any opinion and allowed to freely express it and also to not be enforced to say certain thungs(compelled spect, not so much about noise rukes/laws or about uttering threats or slander/libel/defamation...all of which are reasonably covered by other rules of conduct and laws which are not about the right to have and express an opinion freely or having certain opinions and those that hold and share them denied the right to share and spread those opinions and to have free and open exchange of ideas in a marketplace of ideas and discussions and debate.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Thomas

Ya know what really grinds my gears. SJWs in the metal scene who agree with and push hate speech laws and rules and arbitrary *offense* and political correctness guidelines, rules, and laws, and do so within metal. They've lost the plot completely.
Metal was born to rebel against such. One of the things that got me into metal and metal particularly made me a warrior of is free speech absolutism. And *hate* being disallowed by them and witchhunted by them in metal, irony of ironies, metal is one of the few art forms born inland of anger, frustration, and hate(especially black metal, *hate is the fuel of BM*nas Fenriz says, and in to a lesser degree of DM and TM too).
The speech and ideas police are cancer and poison to heavy metal, and political correctness has no place in metal(I mean FIBA band or fan wants to be so themselves...hey, that's their right, but for them to impose their biases on metal goes against everything metal stands for, it rapes the spirit of metal).
And funny how they want censorship of, banning of, witchhunting of *hate speech* or *offensive opinions* in metal while they tolerate songs by BM bands and some DM bands and a few TM bands that talk about genociding Christian's or the whole human species and/or demonize anyone/thing right of center and/or white people abd/or males. Ugh! Lol!
These people have become a pox in metal in recent years.
There were always bands here and there that expressed some social justice or progressivist or leftist ideals, cool, I like a few of those myself(Anthrax, Napalm Death, Sacred Reich,etc)...but in recent years they've become a major force in the metal scene and have conducted their censorship and witchhunt campaigns in metal and tried...wi4h some(though not full)success to impose themselves in metal scene, they have forgotten what metal was born to be the champion of- free speech absolutism, anger/hate/frustration, offensiveness, Speaking truth even if it *offends* some people, individualism, liberty, etc. They are trying to destroy the spirit of metal! But ultimately they cannot and will not succeed, the metal spirit is too strong to so easily subvert, rape, and destroy.

Metal is and should be the last bastion and vanguard and defender of absolute, no holds barred freedom of speech/expression...if that is subverted and taken away from us...that is the day metal dies! We cannot let that happen! It will not happen despite their efforts to do so. Metal IS free speech, free speech IS metal!

Contrarian Deist wrote:Ya know what really grinds my gears. SJWs in the metal scene who agree with and push hate speech laws and rules and arbitrary *offense* and political correctness guidelines, rules,  and laws, and do so within metal. They've lost the plot completely.
Metal was born to rebel against such. One of the things that got me into metal and metal particularly made me a warrior of is free speech absolutism. And *hate* being disallowed by them and witchhunted by them in metal, irony of ironies, metal is one of the few art forms born inland of anger, frustration,  and hate(especially black metal, *hate is the fuel of BM*nas Fenriz says, and in to a lesser degree of DM and TM too).
The speech and ideas police are cancer and poison to heavy metal, and political correctness has no place in metal(I mean FIBA band or fan wants to be so themselves...hey, that's their right, but for them to impose their biases on metal goes against everything metal stands for, it rapes the spirit of metal).
And funny how they want censorship of, banning of, witchhunting of *hate speech* or *offensive opinions* in metal while they tolerate songs by BM bands and some DM bands and a few TM bands that talk about genociding Christian's or the whole human species and/or demonize anyone/thing right of center and/or white people abd/or males. Ugh! Lol!
These people have become a pox in metal in recent years.
There were always bands here and there that expressed some social justice or progressivist or leftist ideals, cool, I like a few of those myself(Anthrax, Napalm Death, Sacred Reich,etc)...but in recent years  they've become a major force in the metal scene and have conducted their censorship and witchhunt campaigns in metal and tried...wi4h some(though not full)success to impose themselves in metal scene, they have forgotten what metal was born  to be the champion of- free speech absolutism,  anger/hate/frustration, offensiveness, Speaking truth even if it *offends* some people, individualism, liberty, etc. They are trying to destroy the spirit of metal! But ultimately they cannot and will not succeed, the metal spirit is too strong to so easily subvert, rape, and destroy.

Metal is and should be the last bastion and vanguard and defender of absolute, no holds barred freedom of speech/expression...if that is subverted and taken away from us...that is the day metal dies! We cannot let that happen! It will not happen despite their efforts to do so.  Metal IS free speech, free speech IS metal!

YES! VERY well put!!
I've been saying this about the Metal scene for several years now. "What have these guys turned into?" is a question I find myself asking more and more about certain bands and musicians. Why would they want to be a part of a plastic society?


"Steel is strongest - so say we ALL!" - Manowar "Brothers Of Metal"

UltraMagnus wrote:

Contrarian Deist wrote:Ya know what really grinds my gears. SJWs in the metal scene who agree with and push hate speech laws and rules and arbitrary *offense* and political correctness guidelines, rules,  and laws, and do so within metal. They've lost the plot completely.
Metal was born to rebel against such. One of the things that got me into metal and metal particularly made me a warrior of is free speech absolutism. And *hate* being disallowed by them and witchhunted by them in metal, irony of ironies, metal is one of the few art forms born inland of anger, frustration,  and hate(especially black metal, *hate is the fuel of BM*nas Fenriz says, and in to a lesser degree of DM and TM too).
The speech and ideas police are cancer and poison to heavy metal, and political correctness has no place in metal(I mean FIBA band or fan wants to be so themselves...hey, that's their right, but for them to impose their biases on metal goes against everything metal stands for, it rapes the spirit of metal).
And funny how they want censorship of, banning of, witchhunting of *hate speech* or *offensive opinions* in metal while they tolerate songs by BM bands and some DM bands and a few TM bands that talk about genociding Christian's or the whole human species and/or demonize anyone/thing right of center and/or white people abd/or males. Ugh! Lol!
These people have become a pox in metal in recent years.
There were always bands here and there that expressed some social justice or progressivist or leftist ideals, cool, I like a few of those myself(Anthrax, Napalm Death, Sacred Reich,etc)...but in recent years  they've become a major force in the metal scene and have conducted their censorship and witchhunt campaigns in metal and tried...wi4h some(though not full)success to impose themselves in metal scene, they have forgotten what metal was born  to be the champion of- free speech absolutism,  anger/hate/frustration, offensiveness, Speaking truth even if it *offends* some people, individualism, liberty, etc. They are trying to destroy the spirit of metal! But ultimately they cannot and will not succeed, the metal spirit is too strong to so easily subvert, rape, and destroy.

Metal is and should be the last bastion and vanguard and defender of absolute, no holds barred freedom of speech/expression...if that is subverted and taken away from us...that is the day metal dies! We cannot let that happen! It will not happen despite their efforts to do so.  Metal IS free speech, free speech IS metal!

YES! VERY well put!!
I've been saying this about the Metal scene for several years now. "What have these guys turned into?" is a question I find myself asking more and more about certain bands and musicians. Why would they want to be a part of a plastic society?


"Steel is strongest - so say we ALL!" - Manowar "Brothers Of Metal"

Thank you.
And another thing that grinds my gears is some saying Christian metal us not metal and should be ignored, dismissed, attacked, that it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Even if some Christian metal bands are musically kick ass(and some, which don't simply quote scriptures as all their lyrics....hey some of that is allright, but some actually have thought provoking issues and philosophical lyrics too) but the millions of bands that are redundancies, copy cats, and suck S*#T musically are ok because they have they preach something else?
Buh!
I'm not a Christian, I'm proudly exchristian but fudge....some Christian bands kick arse and deserve alot more attention and respect because musically they arw very good(some have thought provoking lyrics too). I don't care if a band is Christian, satanic, anti religious, atheist, deist, Buddhist, viking, pagan, left or right or center, if they're good...they're good, if they suck...they suck, lol!
To be fair some *Christian metal* people are just or just about as closed minded when it comes to *secular* or *nonchristian* metal...but most are far more open minded than the metalheads and nonchristian bands that think Christian metal shouldn't exist(most say its allowed to, but it should be ignored and dismissed, I disagree), Christian metalheads will listen to(and Christian bands arw musically influenced by nonchristian bands more than Christian bands because the Christian metal music industry doesn't have nearly as many bands...though it has more than nonchristian metalheads assume) plenty of nonchristian bands(just that many have an aversion to overtly satanist or occult bands...or at least the former and/or to overtly antichristian bands and/or the bands whose lyrics and artwork are highly graphic in the extremely gory...especially if gore mixed with sexuality)...
Personally I think both sides could be more open minded about the others sides, but most Christian metalheads and bands know and listen to a hell of alot more nonchristian metal than the other way around(most that do do so ...nonchristian metalheads only mostly know of Mortification and Stryper-...maybe Living Sacrifice...possibly Tourniquet...or Christian screamo/punk/metalcore).
Anyways yeah....imo all metalheads have freedom to choose as they will, but I do think all of any religion or nonreligioun or of either sociopolitical wing...need to expand their horizons a little...there is alot of good metal and alot of crappy metal coming from both/all sides, and all good stuff deserves to be given a chance, heard, given credit and attention, and allowed to succeed in the metal scene as a whole.

Rant Done! Lol!
🤯🤬

Contrarian Deist wrote:

UltraMagnus wrote:

Contrarian Deist wrote:Ya know what really grinds my gears. SJWs in the metal scene who agree with and push hate speech laws and rules and arbitrary *offense* and political correctness guidelines, rules,  and laws, and do so within metal. They've lost the plot completely.
Metal was born to rebel against such. One of the things that got me into metal and metal particularly made me a warrior of is free speech absolutism. And *hate* being disallowed by them and witchhunted by them in metal, irony of ironies, metal is one of the few art forms born inland of anger, frustration,  and hate(especially black metal, *hate is the fuel of BM*nas Fenriz says, and in to a lesser degree of DM and TM too).
The speech and ideas police are cancer and poison to heavy metal, and political correctness has no place in metal(I mean FIBA band or fan wants to be so themselves...hey, that's their right, but for them to impose their biases on metal goes against everything metal stands for, it rapes the spirit of metal).
And funny how they want censorship of, banning of, witchhunting of *hate speech* or *offensive opinions* in metal while they tolerate songs by BM bands and some DM bands and a few TM bands that talk about genociding Christian's or the whole human species and/or demonize anyone/thing right of center and/or white people abd/or males. Ugh! Lol!
These people have become a pox in metal in recent years.
There were always bands here and there that expressed some social justice or progressivist or leftist ideals, cool, I like a few of those myself(Anthrax, Napalm Death, Sacred Reich,etc)...but in recent years  they've become a major force in the metal scene and have conducted their censorship and witchhunt campaigns in metal and tried...wi4h some(though not full)success to impose themselves in metal scene, they have forgotten what metal was born  to be the champion of- free speech absolutism,  anger/hate/frustration, offensiveness, Speaking truth even if it *offends* some people, individualism, liberty, etc. They are trying to destroy the spirit of metal! But ultimately they cannot and will not succeed, the metal spirit is too strong to so easily subvert, rape, and destroy.

Metal is and should be the last bastion and vanguard and defender of absolute, no holds barred freedom of speech/expression...if that is subverted and taken away from us...that is the day metal dies! We cannot let that happen! It will not happen despite their efforts to do so.  Metal IS free speech, free speech IS metal!

YES! VERY well put!!
I've been saying this about the Metal scene for several years now. "What have these guys turned into?" is a question I find myself asking more and more about certain bands and musicians. Why would they want to be a part of a plastic society?


"Steel is strongest - so say we ALL!" - Manowar "Brothers Of Metal"

Thank you.
And another thing that grinds my gears is some saying Christian metal us not metal and should be ignored,  dismissed,  attacked, that it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Even if some Christian metal bands are musically kick ass(and some, which don't simply quote scriptures as all their lyrics....hey some of that is allright, but some actually have thought provoking issues and philosophical lyrics too) but the millions of bands that are redundancies,  copy cats, and suck S*#T musically are ok because they have they preach something else?
Buh!
I'm not a Christian,  I'm proudly exchristian but fudge....some Christian bands kick arse and deserve alot more attention and respect because musically they arw very good(some have thought provoking lyrics too). I don't care if a band is Christian,  satanic, anti religious,  atheist,  deist, Buddhist, viking, pagan, left or right or center, if they're good...they're good, if they suck...they suck, lol!
To be fair some *Christian metal* people are just or just about as closed minded when it comes to *secular* or *nonchristian* metal...but most are far more open minded than the metalheads and nonchristian bands that think Christian metal shouldn't exist(most say its allowed to, but it should be ignored and dismissed,  I disagree), Christian metalheads will listen to(and Christian bands arw musically influenced by nonchristian bands more than Christian bands because the Christian metal music industry doesn't have nearly as many bands...though it has more than nonchristian metalheads assume) plenty of nonchristian bands(just that many have an aversion to overtly satanist or occult bands...or at least the former and/or to overtly antichristian bands and/or the bands whose lyrics and artwork are highly graphic in the extremely gory...especially if gore mixed with sexuality)...
Personally I think both sides could be more open minded about the others sides, but most Christian metalheads and bands know and listen to a hell of alot more nonchristian metal than the other way around(most that do do so ...nonchristian metalheads only mostly know of Mortification and Stryper-...maybe Living Sacrifice...possibly Tourniquet...or Christian screamo/punk/metalcore).
Anyways yeah....imo all metalheads have freedom to choose as they will, but I do think all of any religion or nonreligioun or of either sociopolitical wing...need to expand their horizons a little...there is alot of good metal and alot of crappy metal coming from both/all sides, and all good stuff deserves to be given a chance, heard, given credit and attention, and allowed to succeed in the metal scene as a whole.

Rant Done! Lol!
🤯🤬

I agree on pretty much every point you made. I was one of the only people I knew of that listened to Christian metal when I was growing up. I got a lot of my friends into some of those bands over time though.

Lyrics don't usually determine whether I listen to a band or not. If I had to agree with all the lyrics of every band I listened to, I wouldn't have much to listen to!

I don't care what a band's "message" is. If I don't like the music, I'm not going to bother with it.

UltraMagnus wrote:

Contrarian Deist wrote:

UltraMagnus wrote:

Contrarian Deist wrote:Ya know what really grinds my gears. SJWs in the metal scene who agree with and push hate speech laws and rules and arbitrary *offense* and political correctness guidelines, rules,  and laws, and do so within metal. They've lost the plot completely.
Metal was born to rebel against such. One of the things that got me into metal and metal particularly made me a warrior of is free speech absolutism. And *hate* being disallowed by them and witchhunted by them in metal, irony of ironies, metal is one of the few art forms born inland of anger, frustration,  and hate(especially black metal, *hate is the fuel of BM*nas Fenriz says, and in to a lesser degree of DM and TM too).
The speech and ideas police are cancer and poison to heavy metal, and political correctness has no place in metal(I mean FIBA band or fan wants to be so themselves...hey, that's their right, but for them to impose their biases on metal goes against everything metal stands for, it rapes the spirit of metal).
And funny how they want censorship of, banning of, witchhunting of *hate speech* or *offensive opinions* in metal while they tolerate songs by BM bands and some DM bands and a few TM bands that talk about genociding Christian's or the whole human species and/or demonize anyone/thing right of center and/or white people abd/or males. Ugh! Lol!
These people have become a pox in metal in recent years.
There were always bands here and there that expressed some social justice or progressivist or leftist ideals, cool, I like a few of those myself(Anthrax, Napalm Death, Sacred Reich,etc)...but in recent years  they've become a major force in the metal scene and have conducted their censorship and witchhunt campaigns in metal and tried...wi4h some(though not full)success to impose themselves in metal scene, they have forgotten what metal was born  to be the champion of- free speech absolutism,  anger/hate/frustration, offensiveness, Speaking truth even if it *offends* some people, individualism, liberty, etc. They are trying to destroy the spirit of metal! But ultimately they cannot and will not succeed, the metal spirit is too strong to so easily subvert, rape, and destroy.

Metal is and should be the last bastion and vanguard and defender of absolute, no holds barred freedom of speech/expression...if that is subverted and taken away from us...that is the day metal dies! We cannot let that happen! It will not happen despite their efforts to do so.  Metal IS free speech, free speech IS metal!

YES! VERY well put!!
I've been saying this about the Metal scene for several years now. "What have these guys turned into?" is a question I find myself asking more and more about certain bands and musicians. Why would they want to be a part of a plastic society?


"Steel is strongest - so say we ALL!" - Manowar "Brothers Of Metal"

Thank you.
And another thing that grinds my gears is some saying Christian metal us not metal and should be ignored,  dismissed,  attacked, that it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Even if some Christian metal bands are musically kick ass(and some, which don't simply quote scriptures as all their lyrics....hey some of that is allright, but some actually have thought provoking issues and philosophical lyrics too) but the millions of bands that are redundancies,  copy cats, and suck S*#T musically are ok because they have they preach something else?
Buh!
I'm not a Christian,  I'm proudly exchristian but fudge....some Christian bands kick arse and deserve alot more attention and respect because musically they arw very good(some have thought provoking lyrics too). I don't care if a band is Christian,  satanic, anti religious,  atheist,  deist, Buddhist, viking, pagan, left or right or center, if they're good...they're good, if they suck...they suck, lol!
To be fair some *Christian metal* people are just or just about as closed minded when it comes to *secular* or *nonchristian* metal...but most are far more open minded than the metalheads and nonchristian bands that think Christian metal shouldn't exist(most say its allowed to, but it should be ignored and dismissed,  I disagree), Christian metalheads will listen to(and Christian bands arw musically influenced by nonchristian bands more than Christian bands because the Christian metal music industry doesn't have nearly as many bands...though it has more than nonchristian metalheads assume) plenty of nonchristian bands(just that many have an aversion to overtly satanist or occult bands...or at least the former and/or to overtly antichristian bands and/or the bands whose lyrics and artwork are highly graphic in the extremely gory...especially if gore mixed with sexuality)...
Personally I think both sides could be more open minded about the others sides, but most Christian metalheads and bands know and listen to a hell of alot more nonchristian metal than the other way around(most that do do so ...nonchristian metalheads only mostly know of Mortification and Stryper-...maybe Living Sacrifice...possibly Tourniquet...or Christian screamo/punk/metalcore).
Anyways yeah....imo all metalheads have freedom to choose as they will, but I do think all of any religion or nonreligioun or of either sociopolitical wing...need to expand their horizons a little...there is alot of good metal and alot of crappy metal coming from both/all sides, and all good stuff deserves to be given a chance, heard, given credit and attention, and allowed to succeed in the metal scene as a whole.

Rant Done! Lol!
🤯🤬

I agree on pretty much every point you made. I was one of the only people I knew of that listened to Christian metal when I was growing up. I got a lot of my friends into some of those bands over time though.

Lyrics don't usually determine whether I listen to a band or not. If I had to agree with all the lyrics of every band I listened to, I wouldn't have much to listen to!

I don't care what a band's "message" is. If I don't like the music, I'm not going to bother with it.

A-men

It seems like the ones who started this thread and, "The problem with the economic the classism of marxists and crony/monoply capitalists" has a chip on their shoulder or are just in the mood to vent. 

Anyway, when it comes to free speech, you can tell the difference between a Liberal and a Leftist by this: A Liberal will defend your right to say what you want even though they don't agree with it. A Leftist will censor free speech and shut down those who have different views.

It's amazing how Christianity have caved to the Leftists. A preacher is afraid of speaking against homosexuality, a popular Christian artists is afraid to speak the gospel at a Grammy awards show, or a preacher is afraid to say how one gets to heaven at a Larry King Live interview. When we talk about the "world" we need to look at ourselves first. Over the centuries religious Christianity, and I use that word broadly, has embarrassed  itself over the centuries such as anti-semitism, the European Inquisitions, the Tipper Gore religious right in censoring music which was a political tactic to get Al Gore elected to the senate, the televangelism scandals in the 80's, etc. And most recently, churches caving to the so called democratic countries demands to not meet at full capacity because of covid. While I don't agree with all of John Macarthur's theological views, I have to respect him in standing up to the California govt and meeting at full capacity. I wish our local Pentecostal churches would have the balls to do the same. There are under ground churches in hostile dictatorships like Iran and China who meet in secret and risk their lives or being sent to the gulags. 

I also agree to some extent with folks like Frank Turek, Candace Owens, Charlie Kirk, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson and Dennis Prager of most of their views on capitalism, free speech defending religious rights, pronouns (he, she, they) and gender identity (you are the sex you are born with unless there is a proven medical deformity which does occur in rare occasions). 

Jordan Peterson don't agree with alternate pronouns and I totally agree. He said, "When I see a stranger I call them by the pronoun the seems to be in accordance with their presented appearance."

Opinions will only get you so far. What matters is the Bible and there was a price on Christ's head and several attempts on his life for the things he said. If anyone was politically incorrect it's Jesus. If Christians today were a little more bolder these days and spoke truth this world would be a better place. Some Christians wish a preacher or someone else in their religious group or denomination would take a stand. When someone else from another group does who have a slightly theological view they are the first ones to critize that person when they should be supporting them.

To be fair , Tipper Gore who headed the PMRC was/is not religious RIGHT but religious left.
Another of metal fans blame soley the religious right or Republicans for that, but Gore was/is a Democrat, many forget this fact(because scapegoating the right and Republicans is so much easier for them). And to be fair, looking back in retrospect I think the PMRC asking for parental advisory stickers on music tapes and records(later cds) wasn't such an unreasonable request.
And of course many extreme metal fans have taken to sarcastically thanking them because the stickers just made those albums so much more appealing.. ..particularly to young metal heads, lol!
But yeah, advisory stickers were and are, like any age appropriate rating systems...perfectly reasonable.
When I was a youth I despised them for it, but one can see as they mature that such a thing is not necessarily a bad idea. Heck, Even Dee Snider who went before them and roasted Tipper at the time now says its not a unreasonable thing in itself.

Oh, and yes, I do have a *chip on my shoulder* and was in *need to vent* when I started the thread, lol! I'm not sure that's necessarily a negative thing, lol!

And love me some Jordan, Candace, and Ben, amongst many other such thinkers.

If there were more "chips on shoulders" about certain things, we wouldn't be in this predicament with the increasing erosion of our rights, our beliefs and our sanity. Censorship is being used to lock this "new normal" in place. A lot of us see this slow enslavement for what it is, but sadly there are those who refuse to. Too many easily distracted, spineless people that will simply cave and comply.

UltraMagnus wrote:If there were more "chips on shoulders" about certain things, we wouldn't be in this predicament with the increasing erosion of our rights, our beliefs and our sanity. Censorship is being used to lock this "new normal" in place. A lot of us see this slow enslavement for what it is, but sadly there are those who refuse to. Too many easily distracted, spineless people that will simply cave and comply.

Thank you Ultra.

The PMRC (bipartisan BTW)'s proposed warning stickers WERE unreasonable though:

D/A: Drugs and/or alcohol references
V: Violence references
O: Occult references
X: Sexual references

That wouldnt just affect secular music, but Christian metal as well. Vengeance Rising's Human Sacrifice, for example, would be slapped with the D/A, V, and O label, even though they certainly werent advocating that stuff. And I doubt most Christian bookstores would carry albums with those labels.

It would, but it didn't and doesn't. I don't think I've ever once seen a parental advisory sticker on a single Christian metal album.
Though, if they're gonna be on non-Christian metal albums they should then be on Christian ones too. I mean, obviously some Christian metal bands might not be appropriate for little kids either(Vomitotial Corpulence, Inversion, Horde, Rackers and Drapes, and a bunch of others cone to mind)...clearly much Christian metal has content and imagery thats at least a PG-13 if not R. Just like w/non-Christian metal.
Though I think teens and teens should clearly be able to get and enjoy both(with a few band/album exceptions that is for under the age of reason/14-15), but that parents should be given fair warning before buying or letting their kids buy....at the parents personal discretion....at least in regards tweens and younger.

In regarding Christian bookstores not carrying them, well....there's the internet to order from.
But ya know back in the 90s/early 2000s I recall many Christian bookstores not carrying alot of more extreme Christian metal bands....even w/out warning stickers on em.

What always bothered me and still does is the *O*...the others I understand(D/A and V and X....depending on degree of explicitness/graphicness and context of course), but *Occult references* is pretty vague and could cover anything from Wiccan and new age or neonatal ideas to various left hand path ones....to freemasonry and rosicrucianism....and even eastern religions/philosophies in some cases, not to mention mere comparative re,idiot and comparitive mythology(and a number of Christian bands have this, most prominently A Hill to Die Upon...straight up actual occult references there).
It seems to me the PMRC were playing favoritism with judeo-christianity and targeting everything else....and certain philosophies and religions especially, which still seems to me very unfair to try and shield kids from anything and everything that isn't explicitly evangelical fundamentalist Christianity and just treat everything else as straight up devil worship.
I'm sure nowadays there's all more nuance applied than there was back then of course, but still....

Over the last several years (particularly the last 4), a great number of people are realizing the true nature of those we "elect". If 2020 didn't wake people up, I don't know what will.

Today's push for censorship is "justified" by supposedly wanting to filter out "fake news" (like we can't decide for ourselves if something makes sense or not) and to "protect" people from "hate speech" (LOL). "Just think of the oppressed!"

We all know it's just a trojan horse for controlling the flow of information.

It was the same in the 80s. They were just using "Christian values" as a means to an end. "Just think of the children!"

The whole 80s PMRC thing was all just a "dry run" for what's happening today.

Same crap. Different decade.
Same goal. Different excuses.
Same tyrants. Different faces.

Give them an inch, they'll take ten miles...and they have.

Now its *Just think of the Zirs!!!*

Contrarian Deist wrote:Now its *Just think of the Zirs!!!*

Zir Larpalot

Zir Prance-a-lot

Zir Antifalot

etc, etc.

🤪🤪