Help me out here guys...

Ok, somewhere in this thread is an olive branch. ...and an attempt to at least make things right, make a difference or at least try to understand what the problem is here? This thread is about personalities trumping principles on this, the CMR forum. I hate to say it, but I feel like this forum is a hostile environment and has gotten way out of control. We've had this elephant in the room far too long and we NEED to talk about it.

It would be easy to just ignore or dismiss the issue(s) by taking the approach of "If this place gets to you, then leave for a while" - well, I've done and tried that. If nothing changes, then nothing changes. I took a year + break just to return to some different people, but the same (perhaps worse) chaos that was here when I left.

I don't want to just give up because... I love God, I love metal and I need every safe place I can get for these passions.

Currently, I'm to the point of resenting individuals here, even outside my forum time. I literally have user names renting space in my head. I feel like I've been attacked to the point of scarring and my flesh wants vengeance. I know that's not right, or Christ-like... but there it is. I'm being honest. I've always had the mindset of "a problem shared is half repaired" and am hoping for myself to not only bury the hatchet, but increase understanding and not let grudges start in the first place. I'm also hoping for EVERYONE that if we can all make an effort for behavioral improvements? I can't do this alone.

Allow me to share an example from 2009. For several months, I was "a Christian voice" on an atheist forum called "Why won't God heal amputees?". It started as their rebuttal to a comment I made on a YouTube, but ended up being regular debate/discussion on belief vs disbelief on their official forum.

The kicker is, I got along better with people who didn't listen to metal and didn't believe in God...
...than on THIS forum, with people who share my faith and (generally speaking) my music preference.
Red flag anyone?

I'm no stranger to Christian metal forums. The first one I joined was the BCMMB (Brutal Christian Music Message Board) in the late 90's. I was a regular at the Blabberboard until it closed. Sure there was some headbutting, but nothing compared to what happened/happens here.

I'm also currently a member at a Christian black metal forum and we have 20-25 ACTIVE members. We have theological discussions on every taboo subject you can think of and there HAS NOT been one fight or one issue of disrespect - and yes, there are disagreements. Yet here, a discussion doesn't have to be even remotely theological for it to get completely out of control, with little hope of ever coming back to civility, eventually getting locked or destroyed.

I'm mentioning this because, the problem is not (just) me, but I know there is a problem here. Something beyond the scope of certain topics, certain members... I'm not entirely sure what it is.
Not trying to be overly dramatic here but, is there something evil here? Seriously.

Does anyone else, like me, get along on other (Christian metal or not) forums perfectly fine but finds themselves constantly surrounded by tension and fighting while they're here?

From my observations, this place is notorious for 3 things.
1) Gank-squads. I realize most of you aren't gamers, but this term means multiple people "teaming up" on one person. I rarely see a 1on1 back and forth here.
2) Voodoo Doll'ing. Like a strawman, but intentionally or unintentionally charging the other person's emotions. ie: Person1 claims BandX is GenreA instead of GenreB. In a healthy discussion, responses disagreeing with Person1 would be to provide evidence on how BandX is GenreB, NOT GenreA. The unhealthy response (what happens here) is that disagreeing with Person1 results in responses about Person1 being uneducated and not knowing what genres of music even are.
3) Lack of diffusion. Person1 brings it to 10. Person2 brings it to 15. Person1 gets ticked and brings it to 35. Persons 2, 3 and 4 bring it to 45. Person 1 brings it to 70. The thread gets quarantined or cremated. Repeat ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I realize I am an ingredient to the chaos - and I'm sorry for taking other's inventory but, I feel most of us here bring our own ingredients to make this community's dysfunctional recipe. I don't think any one person (including myself) makes an entire place turn hostile.

So...

What do we do about this? We need help.
I need help.

I want to be open, and discuss this like grown Christian adults and try to make some REAL improvements here. I want to make myself vulnerable to address my flaws and where I fall short in this place, and while I'm legitimately afraid of being attacked for discussing my behavioral shortcomings here, it would be great if we could all somehow muster a degree of trust and bear, discuss and attempt to minimize our flaws. You've got to tear the old buildings down before you can put the new ones up, if that makes sense.

Mods, please help too. I'm not trying to tell the authority here what to do, but if attempted resolution brings a little heat, and your reflexes want to put out fires, please consider deleting delinquent posts instead of destroying the entire thread.

God help us all if we can't talk about this...

If something online is causing your blood to boil that bad, you really need to do what you talked about in your second paragraph and walk away. Doesn't matter who was right. Or wrong. NO forum (or any website) is worth the stress that you are enduring.

I'm going to drop the third person talk for a minute here. I have left and returned several times. This is actually my third username, and when the heat got too much, or if I happened to disagree with a direction or consensus that this board was taking, I bowed out. It's their sandbox, and it's not worth my time or blood pressure getting into online squabbles with folks that I'm probably never going to meet in this life.

First and foremost, I'm still here because

ThomasEversole wrote:I love God, I love metal and I need every safe place I can get for these passions.

I appreciate the advice.  ...and while I've certainly considered leaving...  again... I'd like to see if there's ANY hope of a community resolution.  (or is the word revolution?)

The only attention I want to draw to myself is how I can be a better member here.

I don't want this to be "their" sandbox.  I want us all to play and have fun in it, without worrying about sand-throwing or cat poop.

If it becomes clear there's no hope, then I'll probably be another "member left" statistic as well - until I yearn for the Christian metal community and create another profile, just to begin the cycle anew...

ThomasEversole wrote:Ok, somewhere in this thread is an olive branch.  ...and an attempt to at least make things right, make a difference or at least try to understand what the problem is here?  This thread is about personalities trumping principles on this, the CMR forum.  I hate to say it, but I feel like this forum is a hostile environment and has gotten way out of control.  We've had this elephant in the room far too long and we NEED to talk about it.

It would be easy to just ignore or dismiss the issue(s) by taking the approach of "If this place gets to you, then leave for a while" - well, I've done and tried that.  If nothing changes, then nothing changes.  I took a year + break just to return to some different people, but the same (perhaps worse) chaos that was here when I left.

I don't want to just give up because... I love God, I love metal and I need every safe place I can get for these passions.

Currently, I'm to the point of resenting individuals here, even outside my forum time.  I literally have user names renting space in my head.  I feel like I've been attacked to the point of scarring and my flesh wants vengeance.  I know that's not right, or Christ-like...  but there it is.  I'm being honest.  I've always had the mindset of "a problem shared is half repaired" and am hoping for myself to not only bury the hatchet, but increase understanding and not let grudges start in the first place.  I'm also hoping for EVERYONE that if we can all make an effort for behavioral improvements?  I can't do this alone.

Allow me to share an example from 2009.  For several months, I was "a Christian voice" on an atheist forum called "Why won't God heal amputees?".  It started as their rebuttal to a comment I made on a YouTube, but ended up being regular debate/discussion on belief vs disbelief on their official forum.  

The kicker is, I got along better with people who didn't listen to metal and didn't believe in God...
...than on THIS forum, with people who share my faith and (generally speaking) my music preference.
Red flag anyone?

I'm no stranger to Christian metal forums.  The first one I joined was the BCMMB (Brutal Christian Music Message Board) in the late 90's.  I was a regular at the Blabberboard until it closed.  Sure there was some headbutting, but nothing compared to what happened/happens here.

I'm also currently a member at a Christian black metal forum and we have 20-25 ACTIVE members.  We have theological discussions on every taboo subject you can think of and there HAS NOT been one fight or one issue of disrespect - and yes, there are disagreements.  Yet here, a discussion doesn't have to be even remotely theological for it to get completely out of control, with little hope of ever coming back to civility, eventually getting locked or destroyed.

I'm mentioning this because, the problem is not (just) me, but I know there is a problem here.  Something beyond the scope of certain topics, certain members...  I'm not entirely sure what it is.  
Not trying to be overly dramatic here but, is there something evil here?  Seriously.

Does anyone else, like me, get along on other (Christian metal or not) forums perfectly fine but finds themselves constantly surrounded by tension and fighting while they're here?

From my observations, this place is notorious for 3 things.
1) Gank-squads.  I realize most of you aren't gamers, but this term means multiple people "teaming up" on one person.  I rarely see a 1on1 back and forth here.
2) Voodoo Doll'ing.  Like a strawman, but intentionally or unintentionally charging the other person's emotions.  ie: Person1 claims BandX is GenreA instead of GenreB.  In a healthy discussion, responses disagreeing with Person1 would be to provide evidence on how BandX is GenreB, NOT GenreA.  The unhealthy response (what happens here) is that disagreeing with Person1 results in responses about Person1 being uneducated and not knowing what genres of music even are.
3) Lack of diffusion.  Person1 brings it to 10.  Person2 brings it to 15.  Person1 gets ticked and brings it to 35.  Persons 2, 3 and 4 bring it to 45.  Person 1 brings it to 70.  The thread gets quarantined or cremated.  Repeat ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I realize I am an ingredient to the chaos - and I'm sorry for taking other's inventory but, I feel most of us here bring our own ingredients to make this community's dysfunctional recipe.  I don't think any one person (including myself) makes an entire place turn hostile.

So...

What do we do about this?  We need help.  
I need help.

I want to be open, and discuss this like grown Christian adults and try to make some REAL improvements here.  I want to make myself vulnerable to address my flaws and where I fall short in this place, and while I'm legitimately afraid of being attacked for discussing my behavioral shortcomings here, it would be great if we could all somehow muster a degree of trust and bear, discuss and attempt to minimize our flaws.  You've got to tear the old buildings down before you can put the new ones up, if that makes sense.

Mods, please help too.  I'm not trying to tell the authority here what to do, but if attempted resolution brings a little heat, and your reflexes want to put out fires, please consider deleting delinquent posts instead of destroying the entire thread.

God help us all if we can't talk about this...

A lot said. I don't have the time right now to respond in depth. Yes, there is a problem and yes talking about is the means to resolving it. Don't quit.

Wow, I'm surprised. I am new here, but I don't find this to be a hostile environment at all. Am I missing something?

I think alot of us at one point or another have left and come back. I know I fall in that category. At one point I hated this place with a passion. Not because of the topics but because of the level of "Antagonists" and some of what you said I can relate to. I've been on both ends user and admin side as I used to be an Admin on a few communities since 2002. I came back because recently Ive been thinking about this place and when I saw that the vibe was very different from what I knew, I decided to join this community. It had prob. been about 2 years before I rejoined. And I am not even a metal-head.

One thing I do is I dont get into topics that i know could get me going. I have enough stress in my life to not have a forum add to it.  For the record I am not saying this place adds to it now but it used to. Like you certain users would rent space in my head.

I think your approach is definitely reasonable and mature and screams of wisdom. I dont know you (at least I dont think I do) but i just wanted to tell you that we have all been at that point one time or another, and I agree discussion leads to resolution. One thing i have learned is its hard to get the context of posts sometimes because we dont see the user. Ive been guilty of this at times, hey Im not perfect or even close hehe.

Anyways I think im just babbling now....

I'll just throw out a few things on this.

First, I agree that there is a problem here that has led to a number of people packing up and leaving.  I'm kind of on the verge of doing that myself, not because I can't handle the conflict, but because I just don't get enough out of my time here to make sticking around worth it.  Bottom line for me is that this is an optional activity and I can always go somewhere else to fill this need.  In my view, the problem here is a matter of personalities.  There are really three personality types I see that cause a lot of problems:

1.  People who will not let things go.  These people cannot just disagree, they have to keep trying to convince others that they are wrong.
2.  People who think their opinion is always relevant.  An example of this is the people who don't like extreme metal, but have to go into every extreme metal thread and talk about how crappy the music is and how badly they hate it.  If the thread is "what do you think about this" or something like that, then go for it.  But if it is "New song by____" or something about a particular album by a band you don't like or listen to, then why bother to read and post in it?
3.  People (often from category 2) who invite all manner of drama through their posts and then when the blowback comes, they act the victim or the martyr. 

Of course, that is all my opinion and my take on things.  Others may have other issues.

From my observations, this place is notorious for 3 things.
1) Gank-squads. I realize most of you aren't gamers, but this term means multiple people "teaming up" on one person. I rarely see a 1on1 back and forth here.
2) Voodoo Doll'ing. Like a strawman, but intentionally or unintentionally charging the other person's emotions. ie: Person1 claims BandX is GenreA instead of GenreB. In a healthy discussion, responses disagreeing with Person1 would be to provide evidence on how BandX is GenreB, NOT GenreA. The unhealthy response (what happens here) is that disagreeing with Person1 results in responses about Person1 being uneducated and not knowing what genres of music even are.
3) Lack of diffusion. Person1 brings it to 10. Person2 brings it to 15. Person1 gets ticked and brings it to 35. Persons 2, 3 and 4 bring it to 45. Person 1 brings it to 70. The thread gets quarantined or cremated. Repeat ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

1.  I'm not sure this is a fair or accurate view of what happens.  It makes it seem like Person A says something and then Persons B, C, and D get together and gang up on Person A as a bloc.  What really seems to happen is that Person A says something, then Person B disagrees, Person C comes along and also disagrees, and so on.  Often Person E will come in and agree with Person A or at least give them the benefit of the doubt.  It may feel to Person A like everyone is ganging up on them, but it is really just three people who happen to disagree with that they say.  You don't really see 1 on 1 disagreements because there are more than two people involved in discussions.
2.  Genre discussions--ugh.  I hate genre discussions because so much of it is subjective.  I mean, there's not necessarily "evidence" that "proves" the case for either Person A or Person B.  I know some people trust what a band says about themselves as "Truth," but self-reporting is really poor evidence.  No one would deny that Duke Ellington was a jazz musician, but he never considered his music jazz.  Do we now have to disregard the fact that his music bears all the marks of jazz just because Duke said it wasn't?  Some people shy away from some labels because of what they mean.  Some people just don't care about specifics so they will say they are rock or country or classical rather than getting into specifics.  There are others who use their subjective observations as evidence, but that just becomes a matter of opinion.  But what you are saying is really why I hate to discuss genre. 

3.  Persons 1-4 need to take responsibility for not escalating things.  When you feel yourself getting heated, take a break from the thread. 

Mods, please help too. I'm not trying to tell the authority here what to do, but if attempted resolution brings a little heat, and your reflexes want to put out fires, please consider deleting delinquent posts instead of destroying the entire thread.

This is something I have talked to some of the mods about.  I think there are instances where they are inconsistent in policing things.  I'm generally comfortable with the "Hey guys, back on topic" posts that pop up from time to time, but sometimes I think more needs to be done and sometimes people are sanctioned for offenses while others seem to get a pass for it.  I know through conversations that there are things going on behind the scenes there, but it looks bad to the general membership.  Let me say that I know it is hard to be a mod, having done it at another board, because so much is a judgement call.  Overall, I think the mod team here does a good job and I support them and their decisions more often than not.

I do like the idea of deleting infringing posts rather than killing whole threads, but there are also a number of problems with that approach.  For one, it is hard to catch them all before other members see and respond to it, which means they would not only have to delete the problematic post, but also go through and do all the posts that refer to it.  These guys aren't being paid for this and have other responsibilities in their lives, so doing that really adds a ton of extra time and work to read through each and every post on every new thread.  A second problem is that leaving contentious threads open invites continued problems.  Closing these threads usually cuts it off.

A few good points already made.  I'm sorry, I probably won't have the gusto to respond to every aspect of every post, but I'd like to focus on growth in general.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I NEED a place like this, but - I live in a village of 3,500 people.  There are cornfields everywhere.  Literally there is one guy at work who wears a Slipknot shirt who MAYBE has heard of 3 bands I listen to.  The rest is country, rap and Nickleback.  If I don't talk about it online, I don't talk about it, unfortunately.  Even my wife, bless her heart, doesn't get metal-talk.

It almost sounds hypocritical, but a lot of times I'd rather fight about God and metal than have no one to talk to about it at all.
________________________________

I really am one of these people that can let opinions go (despite what happened in that 45 years Black Sabbath thread) - what I have a hard time letting go is disrespect, regardless of how subtle it is.  

That's my flaw and I'll own it.

Its certainly not limited to genre.  
Here's a hypothetical situation - please keep that in mind.

Lets say I post some music of mine that I created and someone replies saying "I don't like this music." or "This sounds horrible.".  There is nothing wrong with those remarks whatsoever, even if they include details why.  

Now it someone says "This sounds like you fell in the garbage." or "What did you do?  Record this through a tin can?" - that's disrespectful.  The first thing I'd want to do is defend the hours and hours and HOURS I spent creating this, the excitement of showing it to others, just for someone to take 10 seconds to tear it down in two sentences.  I can almost guarantee the detractors reply back suggesting thicker skin, I escalate because I've already got my disrespect-blinders on, then onward to the abyss.

I mentioned a hypothetical situation, now I'll mention an absolutely TRUE one.

Someone created a thread of a new album I created.  The first response was "Sounds like bedroom black metal".  While I ignored it on the forum, my initial reaction internally was "What the hell does he mean by that?".  

Again, at this point, I'm past like or dislike - I'm reacting entirely to what I perceived as disrespect.  I may have let it go on the forum, but I absolutely remember when someone mistreats me.  I'll claim that as another flaw of mine, if need be.

Regarding the "gank squad" comments, messiaen77, you're right - that's probably not what really happens, but it really LOOKS like that's what's happening.  Persons 2, 3 and 4 already posted - 4 hours apart from each other.  ....but if Person 1 doesn't check the thread until a day later, he's reading the remarks all at the same time.  In his mind, they might as well have disagreed at the same time while standing in a circle around him.
____________________________

Regardless of what actions mods take, I'm confident that they're only trying to do what's best for everyone here.  There may be issues with consistency, but that's what happens when you've got multiple mods who take care of situations on the fly.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T. That's the bottom line. Respect the opinions and feelings of others. Consider whether or not you would like to be on the receiving end of what you're about to post. Most of what we discuss is subjective, there's no right or wrong. I, like Thomas, have very few personal friends who share my passion and tastes in music. That's why I come here. We are all, for the most part, friends here. We should act like it.

I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

metaldude wrote:R-E-S-P-E-C-T. That's the bottom line. Respect the opinions and feelings of others. Consider whether or not you would like to be on the receiving end of what you're about to post. Most of what we discuss is subjective, there's no right or wrong. I, like Thomas, have very few personal friends who share my passion and tastes in music. That's why I come here. We are all, for the most part, friends here. We should act like it.

I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

That's a very good post dude. Seriously.

I have quite a few local friends, but unfortunately, most of them are not believers in Jesus. I desire to have friends who are believers in Christ, yet not religious. Seems like it's hard to find people like that. They are either atheist or agnostic, or they are extreme Christian or Mormon (where I live in Utah is about 70% Mormon). Same principles apply though.

A friend of mine (Aaron C) told me he had been posting here, so I thought I'd come and give it a chance.

I was surprised. People seemed cool. Like me. Strong faith in God, yet not all "Christian Music Scene Only Religious Chumps Type". Been posting here for almost a week now and I think the peeps rawk! It's hard to find Christian Metal fans who also like 'non' Metal music too. Or at least not bash on it and what not.

Thomas, even you seem like a kewl dude to me. Heck, I even like Black Metal. Though it's not a top fave genre, I am into it. Symphonic Black, Melodic Black, Straight up Black, and even War Metal has it's appeal (another subgenre of Black Metal, which I'm sure you of all people are aware of heheh.)

I meant no disrespect. Hope it wasn't taken that way. Typing can be kinda weird that way ya know? In person, people are easier to read. Tone of voice can display subtle disrespect, whereas, frankly keyboards cannot.

RavenWolf wrote:Thomas, even you seem like a kewl dude to me. Heck, I even like Black Metal. Though it's not a top fave genre, I am into it. Symphonic Black, Melodic Black, Straight up Black, and even War Metal has it's appeal (another subgenre of Black Metal, which I'm sure you of all people are aware of heheh.)

I meant no disrespect. Hope it wasn't taken that way. Typing can be kinda weird that way ya know? In person, people are easier to read. Tone of voice can display subtle disrespect, whereas, frankly keyboards cannot.

Look, I appreciate the olive branch, but you and I have already gotten waaaaaaaaay off on the wrong foot, at least in my book.

As much as I'd really like to discuss in detail that I DO NOT like to fight/argue, (but will do it if I'm disrespected)
or discuss that its NOT ok to say whatever you want as long as you put "no offense" in front of it...  

I'm just going to stop right there.

Sorry man, but I'm still really hot under the collar from our previous interactions.  Please let me cool down before trying to interact with me again because I may take everything you say the wrong way, and in the spirit of behavioral progress here...

I don't want to take everything you say the wrong way.

metaldude wrote:R-E-S-P-E-C-T. That's the bottom line. Respect the opinions and feelings of others. Consider whether or not you would like to be on the receiving end of what you're about to post. Most of what we discuss is subjective, there's no right or wrong.

Regarding subjectivity, I think there's a certain level of that regarding respect/disrespect.  Yes, there's a general respect involved, but the same sentence said to one person might default to a joke, another, default to an insult.

I can understand how a percentage of all of this is just a miscommunication.  The issue is, if someone is at fault for taking something typed the wrong way - is the response back something that will make the situation better, or worse?

Thomas, I'm going to (forcefully) suggest that if you can't even handle someone offering you an apology, then the onus is on YOU to handle YOUR business and back down rather than try and shift the "problem" off to the other dude.  You ALWAYS have the option NOT TO RESPOND, and I am going to suggest you learn to exercise some self control and discretion.


You may THINK that you already do.


I am TELLING you that you are not.  This thread, and the numerous long responses to virtually everything said in it bear witness to it.

Please, take a break and clear your head rather than continue this......

It was a mistake to try to distract myself with forum stuff on my scheduled day off work to cope with my grandmother's sudden death. I'm lashing out at everything, on and off line.

You're completely right Exo.
I haven't eaten or slept and I just need to... take a break...

We all have bad days, man.  My condolences on your loss 

exo wrote:My condolences on your loss 

+1

That's terrible, I'm sorry to hear that Thomas. That day came for me a couple years ago too.

The Lord is your shepherd. God bless, bro. Will keep you and family in prayers.

Thanks guys.  I got back about 4 hours ago from the funeral.

I realize I was emotionally compromised before.  Not trying to use despair as an excuse, I should have grounded myself better before coming here.

I'm sorry to everyone for my actions.

That being said, I do think there is some legitimacy to my original post.
Does anyone feel like salvaging the conversation, or should I put some time into the equation and start fresh later?

KaramKaram wrote:

exo wrote:My condolences on your loss 

+1

Same :/

ThomasEversole wrote:That being said, I do think there is some legitimacy to my original post.
Does anyone feel like salvaging the conversation, or should I put some time into the equation and start fresh later?

Why don't we pick this up at a later time down the road.

I don't get involved with every discussion here, but I'd say the friction level is way down from where it was a few months back.

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." - 1 Peter 4:8

ThomasEversole wrote:It was a mistake to try to distract myself with forum stuff on my scheduled day off work to cope with my grandmother's sudden death.

Thomas....I am very sorry for your loss.

I pray that God will give you peace even within your heartache.

ThomasEversole wrote:Thanks guys.  I got back about 4 hours ago from the funeral.

I realize I was emotionally compromised before.  Not trying to use despair as an excuse, I should have grounded myself better before coming here.

I'm sorry to everyone for my actions.

That being said, I do think there is some legitimacy to my original post.
Does anyone feel like salvaging the conversation, or should I put some time into the equation and start fresh later?

bjorn agin wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:That being said, I do think there is some legitimacy to my original post.
Does anyone feel like salvaging the conversation, or should I put some time into the equation and start fresh later?

Why don't we pick this up at a later time down the road.

I don't get involved with every discussion here, but I'd say the friction level is way down from where it was a few months back.

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." - 1 Peter 4:8

I agree.

Please take care Thomas. I think things are good for you here. I think that a lot of us love you here.

I hope to hear a good report from you later. But just don't tell you played black metal at the memorial.