Artificial Intelligence

alldatndensum wrote:


At the same time, jobs are being created as people have to build websites, maintain the machines, and do I.T. jobs for big corporations.  Human work of some kinds will be obsoleted, but new technologies means new types of jobs and opportunities.  No matter the field you work in, if you want a long lasting position, you need to get some computer or robotics training.

You are right that new work will be created. But at this very moment while I type this, fe. in Japan machines are created to maintain and repairing other machines.

The other question is, that not all people have abilities to become top-level engineers or programmes. Some high end -jobs will be born. But for many new works will propably be low wage -jobs. I´m afraid that there will not be as many new jobs as we lose. That´s my concern.

I hope I´m wrong. Actually I´d be more than happy to be wrong.

A corporation wants to make more money and they are considered greedy? If you want to make more money, does that mean you are greedy?

New Creation wrote:A corporation wants to make more money and they are considered greedy? If you want to make more money, does that mean you are greedy?

That depends.  I think the question about greed (for a person or a corporation) comes down to why do you want more?  Do you want more so that you will be able to do more than barely scrape by in life?  Do you want to provide security for your family/workers?  Do you want to be able to live/operate debt free?  I would hardly think those reasons would constitute "greed."  To me, the line between wanting to be financially better off and being greedy comes down to the reason for wanting more and what it will cost others for you to have more.

New Creation wrote:A corporation wants to make more money and they are considered greedy? If you want to make more money, does that mean you are greedy

At the moment richest percent of worlds population owns more than the rest. If these people want more, yes it is greed.

How much you need to be happy? To have a decent life and to gain wellfare to your family? Or to get all you can?

What do you love, your God or Mammon? (this question is not pointed to you, but for all)

Getting good job or being succesfull with your business doesn´t necessary mean that you are greedy, if your wellfare is made by honest work and good ethics and not ripping off other people. I believe firmly that companies have to be also responsible to community and share the wealth, fe. create jobs so that people can do work and have decent lives.

Ripping off your neighbours to gain more and more money to yourself is being greedy.

I´m not against entrepreneusrship. I have been entrepreneur myself for some time now, selling my work to private consumers and mediacompanies. And of course I want to be succesfull, but everything I do must be ethically and morally sound.

HeavyLighter wrote:

alldatndensum wrote:


At the same time, jobs are being created as people have to build websites, maintain the machines, and do I.T. jobs for big corporations.  Human work of some kinds will be obsoleted, but new technologies means new types of jobs and opportunities.  No matter the field you work in, if you want a long lasting position, you need to get some computer or robotics training.

You are right that new work will be created. But at this very moment while I type this, fe. in Japan machines are created to maintain and repairing other machines.

The other question is, that not all people have abilities to become top-level engineers or programmes. Some high end -jobs will be born. But for many new works will probably be low wage -jobs. I´m afraid that there will not be as many new jobs as we lose. That´s my concern.

Yeah, that's the problem.  Not everyone has the aptitude to get these tech-skills.  I do know I don't.  And among those that do, not all will have the financial resources to do so, especially if they can't find work, or work that pays enough.  Furthermore, even as though the need for IT people, programmers, engineers, etc. is going to expand, there still will only be a need for so many.  And as I said in my original post, AI's may eventually take those jobs too.  If AI's can develop their own language, how long before they start writing their own code and designing their own robots and computers?

messiaen77 wrote:

New Creation wrote:A corporation wants to make more money and they are considered greedy? If you want to make more money, does that mean you are greedy?

That depends.  I think the question about greed (for a person or a corporation) comes down to why do you want more?

Agreed.  It's about motive, and about what you're willing to do to get what you want.  If someone is willing to trample on others and see people suffer just so you can have more, especially when you're already wealthy, then yes, that person is a greedy scumbag.  It's like so many things in life - you need to consider how your actions will affect others.

Many of those who run corporations are like many of those in government.  They don't really care how the things they do affect others, so long as they get what they want - be it money, power, glory, whatever.  It's been a problem since the dawn of civilization.

HeavyLighter wrote:What do you love, your God or Mammon? (this question is not pointed to you, but for all)

I think this is something most of us have to ask ourselves at some point, not just those who are wealthy.  Greed is a powerful force, and often a sneaky one.

Verbum Lux wrote:
Anyhow Thomas, I truly hope that you're right - that this is all needless worrying and things will work out just fine.  But I think the danger exists, and I think it's best to go forward with that in mind.  In we can pass laws and make plans and ahead of time, we can prepare for the coming changes.  My worry is that people will blow it all off and / or that greedy corporations who have the most to gain by these changes will keep anything from being done until things start to go really bad.

Fear is a future emotion. A first time bungee jumper is afraid to jump because he hasn't done it it yet. Once he jumps, he's no longer afraid to jump - he's then afraid to hit the ground.

Come back into today with us bro.

Its presumptuous to think that in X number of years, we're all going to have this amazing technology and no means to support ourselves. Its just as likely in X number of years, we'll have NO technology, and surrounded by radioactive rubble.

We can't do anything about either outcome, or anything in between. My recommendation, is what Philippians 4:6-7 says.

A heart full of faith and a head full of worry don't mix.

Verbum Lux wrote:
I think this is something most of us have to ask ourselves at some point, not just those who are wealthy.  Greed is a powerful force, and often a sneaky one.

I totally agree!

HeavyLighter wrote:

New Creation wrote:A corporation wants to make more money and they are considered greedy? If you want to make more money, does that mean you are greedy

Ripping off your neighbours to gain more and more money to yourself is being greedy.

I didn't mention theft, I mentioned "make more money". That implies honest work.

Also, how much I want to make is irrelevant to you or anyone. Who is to decide how much is too much? Do you want the government to institute a maximum wage? That would be scary. They already hurt the economy by instituting a minimum wage.

These are relative terms and there is no universal definition set forth by God. Jesus even acknowledged this principle by stating the poor would always be with us in Matthew 26:11 and John 12:8. The fact that the poor will always exist is proof that rich people will also exist.

We are now deraling this thread. This was originally about AI.

Greed and poverty relates to this issue when we discuss about how people are making their living in the future, when AI is possibly taking more and more role in manufacturing sector etc.

Of course all this is just guessing. We have no proper information of the matter, but only certain views to the future. I think it is still important to talk about it in a good manner.

I think the issue of wealth, poverty and theology is another issue that needs another thread. My theology comes pretty much from the liberation theology and I know some don´t agree with me about it. But I say no more about in this thread. Another thread, another time maybe.

But if we go back to the origal issue. I have stated some negative effects and views of AI and modern high technology. There is also some good about it. When technology gets more and more efficient, producing consumer products will get much cheaper and that can actually compensate the lowering wages.

Not trying to further derail the thread, but greed has nothing to do with how much someone already has, or even wanting more of something...

IMO, the sister-vice to greed is idolatry.  True greed, you want more than you need, yes, but there is a "desire", a focal point, an obsession, to the point of it being consuming.  THAT "drive" and all its elements, is greed.  

In regards to AI, is it "greedy" because a company fired all their employees so they could install robots to do the work?  Not necessarily.  It could just be smart business if it saves the company money or increases productivity.

Sucks for the employees of course, (though that sort of thing would be a prime candidacy for unemployment benefits) but again....  that company decision alone is not greed.

I saw an interesting interview with Jason Silva on Larry King Now.  They discussed artificial intelligence, and I really like his example.

Technology/artificial intelligence is like fire.  Fire has enabled us to cook our food and keep us warm in centuries past...  its also been used to destroy property and lives.  It really depends on PEOPLE - what they do with it, as to whether it will benefit or hurt mankind.

In other words, its not going to be an across-the-board kind of thing.  Where there are people using AI to ruin the economy, there will be others that use it to enhance quality of human life.

ThomasEversole wrote:

Verbum Lux wrote:
Anyhow Thomas, I truly hope that you're right - that this is all needless worrying and things will work out just fine.  But I think the danger exists, and I think it's best to go forward with that in mind.  In we can pass laws and make plans and ahead of time, we can prepare for the coming changes.  My worry is that people will blow it all off and / or that greedy corporations who have the most to gain by these changes will keep anything from being done until things start to go really bad.

Fear is a future emotion.  A first time bungee jumper is afraid to jump because he hasn't done it it yet.  Once he jumps, he's no longer afraid to jump - he's then afraid to hit the ground.

Come back into today with us bro.

This isn't just about worry or fear, it's about prudence.  Say you live in a country where the country next door has an eye on expanding their territory.  There have been some intelligence reports that this would involve taking over your country.  Although they're building up their military, they seem to be years away from having the necessary strength to mount an invasion, so it's hardly an immediate threat, and of course the situation could change with new leadership or something.  What you would you want your country's leaders to do in such a situation?  Engage in diplomacy, and start preparing your own military in case that fails?  Or would you prefer them to just say "Eh, it would be years away and might not even happen.  A lot can change in that time.  So business as usual!  Don't worry, be happy!"

Now the whole AI / robots thing is a different situation of course, as no one is planning a robot invasion.  But the principle is the same.  When planning for the future, it's best to consider different scenarios - the good and the bad both.  I live in the Northeastern U.S., where dealing with cold, snow, and ice is a fact of life.  I always keep certain items in my car in the winter - an extra jacket, extra gloves, a thermal blanket, handwarmers, a shovel, etc.  I do this because I know there is the possibly of the car breaking down, or being in an accident, or getting stuck in the snow somewhere unable to get the car out.  None of these things has ever happened, however.  Is it wrong to be ready just in case?  Again, different situation, same principle.

You mentioned Philippians 4:6-7.  A good thing to remember.  I'll certainly admit I have a tendency to worry.  We all should remember that ultimately God is in charge and what he has planned will come to pass regardless of how badly human beings manage to screw up the world.  Those of us who are in Christ should remember that we have eternal life in a better world to look forward to, and that we should have peace in that knowledge.  Point taken.

However, there is another line from scripture that comes to mind.  "Love your neighbor as yourself."  I don't think it's wrong to consider how things to come could impact our fellow human beings, and to consider how we might deal with it.  This doesn't involve merely people's economic well-being ..... it could impact them mentally and spiritually as well.  Part of the Churches mission to to care for the less fortunate, for those in need.  This doesn't have to be merely reactive ..... we can be proactive as well.

ThomasEversole wrote:I saw an interesting interview with Jason Silva on Larry King Now.  They discussed artificial intelligence, and I really like his example.

Technology/artificial intelligence is like fire.  Fire has enabled us to cook our food and keep us warm in centuries past...  its also been used to destroy property and lives.  It really depends on PEOPLE - what they do with it, as to whether it will benefit or hurt mankind.

In other words, its not going to be an across-the-board kind of thing.  Where there are people using AI to ruin the economy, there will be others that use it to enhance quality of human life.

Those are good things to ponder.  Advancements in AI and robotics will brings benefits to humanity, no doubt.  In fact, they already have.  As you said, it depends on what PEOPLE do with it.  Unfortunately, due to our fallen state, all too often our species is greedy, arrogant, self-centered, and indifferent to the suffering of others.   As Christians, we should be aware of this, and should be willing to speak out of about both the misuse and the potential misuse of our resources whether it be technology, money, weapons, etc.

Look, I'm not saying the AIpocalypse is imminent.  Hey, I like that term.  Or perhaps Robopocalypse would be catchier?  Think I'll add a poll to this topic.    Anyway, I'm not saying that all is lost and dystopia is inevitable.  I'm not a prophet, and I don't claim to know the future.  But to me, it's worthwhile to consider different potential impacts, including the more unpleasant ones.  Not to mention, it's pretty interesting stuff. 

ThomasEversole wrote:Not trying to further derail the thread, but greed has nothing to do with how much someone already has, or even wanting more of something...

IMO, the sister-vice to greed is idolatry.  True greed, you want more than you need, yes, but there is a "desire", a focal point, an obsession, to the point of it being consuming.  THAT "drive" and all its elements, is greed.  

In regards to AI, is it "greedy" because a company fired all their employees so they could install robots to do the work?  Not necessarily.  It could just be smart business if it saves the company money or increases productivity.

Sucks for the employees of course, (though that sort of thing would be a prime candidacy for unemployment benefits) but again....  that company decision alone is not greed.

I'm not sure I'd say we're derailing here - at least not completely.  Economics are a part of what this discussion is about, and greed tends to factor into that.  But yeah, what constitutes greed is a topic of it's own.

Regarding this topic though ..... it's true that a company's decision to replace people with AI / robots could theoretically be made with greed being a factor.  Realistically though - once again, given the fallen state of humanity - it would almost certainly play role.  But even if it didn't, that doesn't make it right.  Greedy or not, it IS callous.  Hard-hearted.  That's not any better than greed.  "Good business" sometimes isn't good morally.

Verbum Lux wrote:
When planning for the future, it's best to consider different scenarios - the good and the bad both. 

Yes! The dog sleeps one eye open, for a good reason.

I voted for Ropopocalypse. It sounds like a good name for an industrial metal band.

Let's take the conversation in another direction.  What about sentient AI?  Aritficial / machine consciousness ..... is it possible?  And if AI could replicate every aspect the human mind, would it be entitled to legal rights and protections?  How would you feel about interacting with something like that?

And what about androids?  They already exist.  Of course we're not able to create Lt. Commander Data yet, but things are progressing.  AI that exists on some computer or aboard a clearly mechanical robot is one thing.  AI in something that walks around looking just like you and me is quite another.  I don't know how many androids we'll actually see though.  While I have no doubt they'll make something that can completely pass for human, is it going to be worth the investment?  Specialized non human-looking robots are easier and cheaper to produce.

I see the market for androids as being more along the lines of companionship bots.  Both platonic and romantic.  Although if we develop true virtual reality first, there will be less of a demand.

HeavyLighter wrote:I voted for Robopocalypse. It sounds like a good name for an industrial metal band.

It does, doesn't it?  Their debut album could be titled "Robopocalypse Now."

Verbum Lux wrote:Let's take the conversation in another direction.  What about sentient AI?  Aritficial / machine consciousness ..... is it possible? 

With my world view, I would have to absolutely say no. If God exists ( and all the implications of that ), then this can never be a possibility. But I'm sure the Christians greatest adversary still tempts men to try anyway. I believe self awareness can only come from our Creator.

Verbum Lux wrote:
This isn't just about worry or fear, it's about prudence.  Say you live in a country where the country next door has an eye on expanding their territory.  There have been some intelligence reports that this would involve taking over your country.  Although they're building up their military, they seem to be years away from having the necessary strength to mount an invasion, so it's hardly an immediate threat, and of course the situation could change with new leadership or something.  What you would you want your country's leaders to do in such a situation?  Engage in diplomacy, and start preparing your own military in case that fails?  Or would you prefer them to just say "Eh, it would be years away and might not even happen.  A lot can change in that time.  So business as usual!  Don't worry, be happy!"

Now the whole AI / robots thing is a different situation of course, as no one is planning a robot invasion.  But the principle is the same.

Well yes, the principle is the same, but the entire details are very different.  "Don't worry, be happy" when an invasion from another country is immanent, is foolish.  Likewise, practicing worry and caution toward utterly unverified speculation is overkill.  Its comparable to hanging up pictures with a sledge hammer.

What have you seen of AI that gives a clear indication there is a real and imminent threat?  Do you know someone personally who died from AI?  Someone who had their life ruined from it?  Are jobs left and right in your city being lost from AI?  Have you received a direct notice of losing YOUR job because of robots?

What established harm have you seen of AI that doesn't involve what you've read of some random person's musings on a website?

It seems to me, the prudence needs to be practiced more on the validity of the sources, before gobbling up every word someone says on the internet as established truth.  "Reputable website" is an oxymoron, placed between "plastic glasses" and "virtual reality" in one list I've found.  Every website is only as credible as its article's author.  

Your business insider link was written by Chris Weller.  Are you familiar with his work?
My opinion, his "A robot that once said it would 'destroy humans' just became the first robot citizen" you referenced, seems to blend in well with his other articles, "Advertisers can target you psychologically based on a single Facebook like" and "Photos of abandoned Japanese ruins reveal an eerie, post-apocalyptic world".

Throw those ingredients in with 10 or so junk ads per page like "Trophy Wives Of Older Billionaires" and "Unreal Before And After Photos Of Adult Film Stars" and I think Business Insider is less reputable than the "bigfoot is real" articles on ESPN.com

You want to worry and stress about this?  Have at it.  Since its clearly easier for someone to pull someone else down than it is for someone to pull someone else up, I wish you good luck, and good day.

The Business Insider article was probably not the best one to link, although I must note that plenty of other media outlets covered that story at the time. 

Anyway, Thomas, I think it's safe to say that you and I will never agree on this.  I suspect that we both have drastically different worldviews and philosophies, it's probably best if we just leave it at that.

I will, however, post some links for anyone who is interested.


Concerns about AI and robots aren't just limited to quacks and clickbait sites, and they aren't exactly new either.

I mentioned Elon Musk in my first post.  He's someone I respect a good bit (though I don't always agree with him).  He's been voicing his concerns for a while now, and has even invested money in AI "not from the standpoint of actually trying to make any investment return... I like to just keep an eye on what's going on with artificial intelligence." according to the Guardian.  He has co-founded OpenAI, an non-profit research company to help develop AI in way that will be positive for humanity and hopefully help to avoid the pitfalls.  Here are a couple of articles

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2017/07/16/elon-musk-doesnt-think-were-prepared-to-face-humanitys-biggest-threat-artificial-intelligence/?utm_term=.3c9c82c8955e

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/27/elon-musk-artificial-intelligence-ai-biggest-existential-threat

Stephen Hawking is also worried.

http://www.newsweek.com/stephen-hawking-artificial-intelligence-warning-destroy-civilization-703630

For something more scholarly, here is a 2013 study by the University of Oxford, including a link to the full paper.  According to this, almost half the jobs in the US are at risk of becoming automated with a couple of decades.  It states that workers will need to acquire new skills.  Seems to me that we should start thinking about that.

http://www.eng.ox.ac.uk/about/news/new-study-shows-nearly-half-of-us-jobs-at-risk-of-computerisation

Here's an article in the New York Times.  It's a book review, but it give some interesting thoughts on the matter.  I hadn't heard of Robert Ford before this, but from what I've seen he's seems credible and the book has been well received - and not just by fringe doomsday prophets.  Looks very interesting and it's on my to read list.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/books/review/rise-of-the-robots-and-shadow-work.html

And there's plenty of other material out there.

I haven't seen anything that states the Robopacalypse (yeah, I think I like that word best) is a foregone conclusion.  I don't think it is either.  And there will be plenty of benefits to come.  There already have been benefits.  Today, it was announced the AI has helped us discover new planets, which is pretty cool. 

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/planet-distant-star-discovered-artificial-intelligence/story?id=51796605

But I think there is sufficient cause for concern that we should start thinking about how to deal with the changes now, rather than just waiting to see what happens.

And on that note, here's a solution to the job problem that some have proposed - Universal Basic Income

That could - theoretically - be the answer, but I must admit I'm somewhat dubious.  Sounds great - maybe too great to be feasible.  I haven't read enough to the matter to have a strong opinion yet.  Any thoughts on this?

sentient 6 wrote:

Verbum Lux wrote:Let's take the conversation in another direction.  What about sentient AI?  Aritficial / machine consciousness ..... is it possible? 

With my world view, I would have to absolutely say no. If God exists ( and all the implications of that ), then this can never be a possibility. But I'm sure the Christians greatest adversary still tempts men to try anyway. I believe self awareness can only come from our Creator.

You may be right.  But what makes you think that?  What is it that God does that gives us this?  Is it creating a soul?  Or is just making an organism with the proper design?

And if sentience requires a soul, how do we know that God wouldn't bestow a soul on a sentient machine?  AI's are human creations (or at least they will be until they can design new AI themselves), but then so are human babies if you want to get technical (though the human body is of divine design and bears the Imago Dei).  Eventually, we may be able to create biologically something as complex as a human being in a lab.  Would such a being (person?) be sentient?  Would it have a soul?  If the answer is yes, perhaps a sufficiently developed mechanic being could be considered the same way.  Maybe "life" doesn't have to be organic.

It could even be that the development of sentient AI is part of God's design and he intends for them to have souls one day.

As far as AI ever having a soul, I'm going to say probably not.  But it's something interesting to ponder. 

Some years ago I decided to clean the gutters on my house. So I went up on the roof with the garden hose and began blasting out the crud. At one point I came to the corner of the house where the electrical wire come in. I had the hose jumbled around me and my hands and feet were wet. Because of the heat of the day and my exertion, I felt a little dizzy and not looking, put my hand back against the incline of the roof to steady myself. Bam! I felt like a hammer hit me. I turned around and saw that I touched the weather-head and that the then 50 year old cables had lost most of their insulation. I then realized that I was merely inches next to high voltage exposed wires while being extra conductive from all the running water and precariously positioned in a trip hazard from the mangled hose pile I was sitting on.

Why do I share this? Situational awareness. We really have to pay attention to the situations we put ourselves in or create for ourselves.

Just what kind of jeopardy are we creating with AI?

AI can be a powerful tool like nuclear bombs are powerful weapons. The question is if we can use them correctly.

Here are some interesting thoughts on the topic.

Very interesting video, David.

"Surveillance Authoritarianism"

That's a good name for it.  And it's something important to consider.  We tend to think of AI as being more of a future threat, but it's already being used in negative ways right now.  It's a potent tool for the wealthy and powerful to manipulate and even screw us over.  That adds more urgency to the need for regulations.

The nuclear weapon analogy is an apt one.  As we once had a nuclear arms race, today we have an AI arms race.  The U.S., Russia, and China are at it at right now.  Vladimir Putin has stated that “whoever becomes the leader in this sphere will become the ruler of the world."  It's worth noting that he also said it would be bad if someone achieved a " monopolist position."  Somehow how though, I don't think he'd feel that way if Russia was in a position to do that. 

I think that particular threat is (possibly) somewhat of an exaggeration.  I think with all the work and resources being poured into AI development in different countries, it's unlikely that one will have that much of an edge over the rest.  It could also be used as form of deterrence the way nukes are, which would provide a certain stability.  But this will undoubtedly give superpower nations another means to push smaller ones around.

https://www.wired.com/story/for-superpowers-artificial-intelligence-fuels-new-global-arms-race/

d@v!d wrote:AI can be a powerful tool like nuclear bombs are powerful weapons. The question is if we can use them correctly.

A very good point.  The danger isn't merely what AI could potentially do to us.  It's also what humans could potentially do to each other with it.

ThomasEversole wrote:
Someone who had their life ruined from it?  Are jobs left and right in your city being lost from AI?  Have you received a direct notice of losing YOUR job because of robots?

Actually that has been happening for a long time. Automatisation has killed thousands jobs.

Latest in my area was one of the biggest banks getting rid of 1/10 of all of their employees because of digital technology will take over their jobs.

But. I leave it here.

Don´t get angry of discussion. It is important to talk, and being aware of future risks only helps us to be ready for the changes or even to fight back.

You mentioned something about "pulling someone else down". This discussion is not about pulling people down. I think it is more about realizing the value of being human being and being honestly critical against things we need to be worried. Technology will bring both good and bad, and with critical sense of mind we may be able to keep the good and prevent the bad. That is not pulling people down.