Why don't more Christian metal bands write songs like this?

Friday13th wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Grindboy wrote:

messiaen77 wrote: A lot of people think it is entirely up to us to get people to understand the Gospel, when in reality it doesn't have anything to do with us.  We praise an Almighty God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth.  We love God the Son, conqueror of Death, Hell, and the Grave.  But in a practical sense, many of us believe God the Spirit is virtually impotent and cannot accomplish the work of God on earth and relies on us to get it done.

Really?  Who believes this?  Would anybody raise their hand and say "Yes, this is a fair and accurate representation of my beliefs"?  If you're pointing out the dis-harmony with which you find yourself struggling in your own thoughts, prayers, and actions in an effort to be transparent and move yourself forward, then I commend you.  If this is referencing the supposed positions of others, I would suggest that it's unfair and mischaracterized.

Not to speak out of turn, much less for someone else, but while I think no one would raise their hand and admit to this, I think it's a fairly accurate representation of much of Christian music (and movies, and books...).

That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I don't think me77 was talking about himself. I think he was pointing out that Jesus commanded us to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength but most Christian media stops us from the mind activity....

Thanks Gandalf!

Of course no one would raise their hand and admit it, but I wasn't talking about an accepted belief system.  That's why I said "in a practical sense"--people may not think they believe that way, but that is exactly how it plays out.  When we think about how "we" bring people to Christ, when we think about how "we" overcome sin, when we engage in "scientific" arguments to "prove" the existence of God...we are essentially saying it is all on us to do the work of God through our own efforts.  There are a lot of Christians in this world who have an intellectual acceptance of the Holy Spirit, but don't let that sink into the way they approach their lives.  They think they are responsible for convincing people that the Gospel is true, that what Jesus said about himself is true, that the Bible is true, and that God is real.  They believe that to be "better Christians" they have to work harder, read the Bible more, pray more, win more souls for Christ...that is exactly why so many Christians feel defeated in their every day life.  How many people have you come across that are down on themselves because they don't read the Bible "as much as they should" or have never lead anyone to Christ.  A lot of churches and pastors have made Christianity into something WE do rather than something GOD does THROUGH US.  There is a HUUUUUUGE difference there.  Bringing it back to what my post was addressing, we think we have to make everything we say as Christians about the Bible so crystal-clear that there is no possible way anyone could think anything other than the "truth" about it.  Jesus taught using open-ended parables and in many cases, just left them hanging out there without an interpretation.  We think even the interpretations Jesus gave need further interpretation so that no one believes the wrong thing.  We refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit can work just fine without us yammering on about what things are supposed to mean.

Good reminder. I myself agree with your main point, though this goes deeper into things I'm not sure many here would agree with. This is as you said heavily tied to your theology of the Holy Spirit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Christians who don't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit like healing, prophecy, tongues etc. usually do think it is up to us knowing the Bible, saying the right things and doing our best to win people over to Christ. I don't want to go into all that. But ask yourself. When you read the NT about apostles being filled with the spirit and doing miracles, etc, does it still not read like they put in a lot of effort? At the core it is all God's doing (we are His creations, so we can't really claim what we do either), but I'd say we play a role though logically is still God doing it. My interpretation is that bottomline for everything...the reason God created us, the reason Jesus came down to save us, etc...is God wants our relationship. The Holy Spirit doesn't possess us like a demon would. He lives in us and gives us his qualities. It's a result of our openness to Him. If you believe in freewill, a reason why God doesn't just do everything his way and do away with evil, and why he even put us faulty humans in charge of a mission that we will inevitably fail doing, it makes sense that we do play an active role in evangelizing, etc. It takes getting up in the morning and doing what is right when you don't feel like it. It takes praying and praying when you don't hear God talking. It takes studying the word with faith that he will show you what you need to hear that day. It takes courage to speak to someone about the Lord, but knowing it's Him that's going to do the convicting. It takes little steps of faith all the time that are more than just saying "I have faith", and that is our offering/sacrifice that pleases the Lord and unleashes His power.  

That being said, we can do nothing of worth "on our own", which I gather is what you're saying. Many Christians do live as if they are alone including myself. I've tried arguing with atheists like you said with logical arguments for God and against lots of atheistic inconsistencies, but in the end, even when I show them that Christians aren't dumb and some things in atheism make no sense, they still refuse to accept any of it. It's a spiritual war for their souls, and we can only fight spiritual battles through the Holy Spirit. That's why our relationship with him...our daily devotions, our worship in all things...is so essential. We need God for everything, and he just asks us to do a little.

Now...let me say a little about Christian metal so this doesn't solely belong in the theology section  I understand the concern that some of it sounds too focused on using "metal" sounding Christian themes, but who's to judge the artists' hearts? If it says something like "PUNCH SATAN IN THE FACE!" my first thought is "good luck trying!" and my second is "this is just an excuse for moshers to get wild at a concert." But if that lyric hits home for someone and convinces them to stop doing drugs and thereby "punching satan in the face", awesome! If it sounds too much like a Christianized metal cliche for you, don't listen to it. When I've been talking about not liking Christian metal lyrics I've been talking from an artistic perspective, not if it's right or wrong.

On that same note, ask yourself why we're drawing clear distinctions between secular artists using the Bible and Christian artists using the same Bible. If you discovered that...DELIVERANCE wrote "Creeping Death", would it make it a more "holy" song? Better for thinking about God (I call it worship, but some are a bit stricter)? This is why non-Christians aren't feeling the love they should from the Christian community. We criticize them for doing things that are wrong AND for things that are right.

Again, I'm on a huge wave, but please put up with me one more moment. It's like when Christian bosses say they don't want to give normal, non-religious or special-requirement jobs to someone who is gay. Really? I understand not in the church because that will inhibit them from conveying the doctrine of the church. That's basically a job requirement. But if you don't do one thing right in your whole life, now the things you DO do right...be it work as a cashier, or a salesman, or a pilot...now you can't do that either because your boss is a Christian who is against gay marriage? Where's the unconditional love? Jesus went to Zacchaeus' house before he stopped being a corrupt tax collector. That doesn't mean he supports fraudulent tax collecting. It means he loves Zacchaeus. You guys feel me?

Neal Morse Code wrote:+1 trillion

Gandalf the White wrote:

So, even when I listen to The Clash or The Ramones or Sublime or Boston, I'm talking with God about it and I'm reminded of how awesome he is. Why must everything about our faith be so serious?

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll ask again. Why does one negate the other? If I listen to music and am entertained, why can't that edify me or build me up?

Friday13th wrote:I will say a general wrong attitude I very much dislike in the church is that they give more power to the works of satan in Christians than they do in God in non-Christians. Joseph said in Genesis that his brothers sold him into slavery for evil, but God used it for good. Gods work is more powerful than satan's. If we deny Christian music that is not up to par with our beliefs (aka "contaminated" by satan), why do we reject clear work of God in non-believers? This is acting as if Satan is more powerful than God. Maybe no one says this, but it is the logical conclusion to how we act.

Friday13th wrote:

I purposefully used an absurd example...maybe some Christian metalcore band out there says this but I don't listen to anything of the sort. It's definitely not a phrase based on scripture, but I don't see how it is "the opposite attitude." I can quote scripture too and point out that Genesis 3:15 says the Seed of the Woman (Jesus) will crush the serpents head. Aren't we supposed to follow in the footsteps of Jesus? As I showed, someone could clearly take it as a metaphor and be built in their faith.  Of course we can't physically hurt Satan. Could someone misunderstand? Yes. I can already envision 3 dudes accidentally knocking their friends in the face because they're not using their brains. Could someone use their brain and be edified by it? Yes. If we at least try to see the value of "Christian" lyrics that are coming from a poetic angle or different light instead of getting hung up on the wording used, we would have a much more enjoyable and edifying experience. 

I agree with your final point, sentient 6, that if a band comes on saying their lyrics always scriptural, worshipful, etc than they should keep their word.

Gandalf the White wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:


That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I have bought lots of books over the years from Christian bookstores that didn't have anything to do with an unsaved person coming to know Jesus.
There was even a whole line of "Hardy Boys" type books I bought my kid one time. They didn't have unsaved people coming to know Jesus either.

I couldn't tell if you were being 100% serious about that or not. Maybe it was just that particular publisher.

This has been a few years ago - 6 or 7 years. The two publishers I looked at trying to send work to had that as a clause in the contract. It may have just been them. To be honest, that turned me off from publishing and writing so much I haven't written much since then.

Gandalf the White wrote:

So, even when I listen to .... Sublime...

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

I purposefully used an absurd example...maybe some Christian metalcore band out there says this but I don't listen to anything of the sort. It's definitely not a phrase based on scripture, but I don't see how it is "the opposite attitude." I can quote scripture too and point out that Genesis 3:15 says the Seed of the Woman (Jesus) will crush the serpents head. Aren't we supposed to follow in the footsteps of Jesus? As I showed, someone could clearly take it as a metaphor and be built in their faith.  Of course we can't physically hurt Satan. Could someone misunderstand? Yes. I can already envision 3 dudes accidentally knocking their friends in the face because they're not using their brains. Could someone use their brain and be edified by it? Yes. If we at least try to see the value of "Christian" lyrics that are coming from a poetic angle or different light instead of getting hung up on the wording used, we would have a much more enjoyable and edifying experience. 

I agree with your final point, sentient 6, that if a band comes on saying their lyrics always scriptural, worshipful, etc than they should keep their word.

At least you are admitting its absurd. 


I guess to what you address in this post, I think you are making my case that Christians should put more thought in what the are putting out. We don't accept bad theology from our pastors and teachers do we ? So if a artist is using the Word of God as a source of inspiration for their lyrics, then they should be held to the same standard as teachers. Now, I want to be clear again and say that I am talking about Christian artists that are putting out music expressly designed for evangelism, teaching, worship and generally for building up the Body of Christ.

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:I will say a general wrong attitude I very much dislike in the church is that they give more power to the works of satan in Christians than they do in God in non-Christians. Joseph said in Genesis that his brothers sold him into slavery for evil, but God used it for good. Gods work is more powerful than satan's. If we deny Christian music that is not up to par with our beliefs (aka "contaminated" by satan), why do we reject clear work of God in non-believers? This is acting as if Satan is more powerful than God. Maybe no one says this, but it is the logical conclusion to how we act.

Could you elaborate more on your point here ?

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

So, even when I listen to The Clash or The Ramones or Sublime or Boston, I'm talking with God about it and I'm reminded of how awesome he is. Why must everything about our faith be so serious?

Now, i'm not trying to be a jerk, but are you saying when you listen these bands they remind you of how awesome God is ? Or are you simply saying that God demonstrates his awesomeness by giving us music that we can derive pleasure from ?

Now, of course we don't always need to be serious, but I wouldn't say that everything we like enhances our faith. I will straight up say that I listen to some things merely because I have an addiction to music. Its sought after from an enternal drive to gratify myself, but I can't say my faith in Christ is better because I listened to that music.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll ask again. Why does one negate the other? If I listen to music and am entertained, why can't that edify me or build me up?

I guess I have to ask what you mean by edify, or build you up ? Do you mean this strictly in the Christian sense ? And would you agree that being " entertained " is mostly a inward, self-gratifying experience ?

alldatndensum wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:


That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I have bought lots of books over the years from Christian bookstores that didn't have anything to do with an unsaved person coming to know Jesus.
There was even a whole line of "Hardy Boys" type books I bought my kid one time. They didn't have unsaved people coming to know Jesus either.

I couldn't tell if you were being 100% serious about that or not. Maybe it was just that particular publisher.

This has been a few years ago - 6 or 7 years. The two publishers I looked at trying to send work to had that as a clause in the contract. It may have just been them. To be honest, that turned me off from publishing and writing so much I haven't written much since then.

Have you ever thought of self-publishing and putting one of your old writings out yourself?  Perhaps you could do a Go Fund Me drive and raise the money to print up the first pressing and see if it sells.  If you could sell a few hundred pretty quickly, a bigger publisher might look at you.

One of my favorite authors is Charles Martin.  While he is a Christian, he isn't really a Christian novelist.  Oh, he wrote for a Christian book publisher for a few years, but his stories had flawed characters, people who struggled with their past and with their faith, etc.  They didn't have the big conversion story at the end.  Also, some of the characters just had truly sinful lives.  However, Christ was always pointed to as the Way, the Truth, and the Life without getting into writing a theological discourse into it.  He is now writing for a secular company but is going to continue writing the same types of stories.  I hope he does well as I love his novels!

messiaen77 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Grindboy wrote:

messiaen77 wrote: A lot of people think it is entirely up to us to get people to understand the Gospel, when in reality it doesn't have anything to do with us.  We praise an Almighty God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth.  We love God the Son, conqueror of Death, Hell, and the Grave.  But in a practical sense, many of us believe God the Spirit is virtually impotent and cannot accomplish the work of God on earth and relies on us to get it done.

Really?  Who believes this?  Would anybody raise their hand and say "Yes, this is a fair and accurate representation of my beliefs"?  If you're pointing out the dis-harmony with which you find yourself struggling in your own thoughts, prayers, and actions in an effort to be transparent and move yourself forward, then I commend you.  If this is referencing the supposed positions of others, I would suggest that it's unfair and mischaracterized.

Not to speak out of turn, much less for someone else, but while I think no one would raise their hand and admit to this, I think it's a fairly accurate representation of much of Christian music (and movies, and books...).

That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I don't think me77 was talking about himself. I think he was pointing out that Jesus commanded us to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength but most Christian media stops us from the mind activity....

Thanks Gandalf!

Of course no one would raise their hand and admit it, but I wasn't talking about an accepted belief system.  That's why I said "in a practical sense"--people may not think they believe that way, but that is exactly how it plays out.  When we think about how "we" bring people to Christ, when we think about how "we" overcome sin, when we engage in "scientific" arguments to "prove" the existence of God...we are essentially saying it is all on us to do the work of God through our own efforts.  There are a lot of Christians in this world who have an intellectual acceptance of the Holy Spirit, but don't let that sink into the way they approach their lives.  They think they are responsible for convincing people that the Gospel is true, that what Jesus said about himself is true, that the Bible is true, and that God is real.  They believe that to be "better Christians" they have to work harder, read the Bible more, pray more, win more souls for Christ...that is exactly why so many Christians feel defeated in their every day life.  How many people have you come across that are down on themselves because they don't read the Bible "as much as they should" or have never lead anyone to Christ.  A lot of churches and pastors have made Christianity into something WE do rather than something GOD does THROUGH US.  There is a HUUUUUUGE difference there.  Bringing it back to what my post was addressing, we think we have to make everything we say as Christians about the Bible so crystal-clear that there is no possible way anyone could think anything other than the "truth" about it.  Jesus taught using open-ended parables and in many cases, just left them hanging out there without an interpretation.  We think even the interpretations Jesus gave need further interpretation so that no one believes the wrong thing.  We refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit can work just fine without us yammering on about what things are supposed to mean.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

So, even when I listen to .... Sublime...

....even caress me down ?

....see...i'm not aways serious.

Friday13th wrote:

But what fails for me...must it fail for all other Christians? I'm always for Christian artists putting more thought in what they put out, but I don't think they have to fit the broader definition of "good" theology that go beyond core beliefs. Maybe here's were the real disagreement lies. I believe in the Bible's authority, but I don't think every Bible-believing Christian who is sincerely seeking to understand it will come to the same conclusions about many things. Why God allows this confusion over His word? Don't ask me. To use the "absurd" example again, what one person thinks is totally contrary to scripture, another sees as a good metaphor in line with scripture that spurs their faith. You see why we can't just say "they're on the wrong side of the biblical issue therefore that band is terrible"? 

Friday13th wrote:

"Christian" artists and basically all artists in general should NOT be held to the same standard as spiritual teachers. In fact, I might even disagree with the standard you use for teachers. Teachers are teachers only of what they've studied and what you want to learn from them. I go to a spiritual teacher to get answers for my spiritual life. If I don't agree with a teacher in anything he says, then it's a useless student-teacher relationship. Musical artists "teach" me, but about what they know...which is usually little more than music. I'm inspired by their guitar playing, lyrical poetry, but not necessarily for 100% correct doctrine. I take what I do agree with and meditate on these things. Anything I don't agree with...is it going to cause me to sin? Fall away from the faith? Of course not, it just reminds me that other Christians believe the same gospel with different supporting facts. A Christian artist is no different then a fellow believer sharing his heart through his lyrics.

Friday13th wrote:

Basically the point is this. Christians often say if something is not 100% correct it is FALSE *insert Bible verse about staying away from falsehoods.* That works on tests, perfect worlds, heaven...a.k.a. not where we're at right now. Not with people, and relationships, art and all that good stuff. Jesus came for sinners, and try as we might we won't be perfect till we get to heaven. God is doing wonderful things that we ignore because we're too distracted by satan's little schemes. We say God is more powerful than satan or people, but how come good things done by God through Christians must be thrown out because Christians messed up a little? As if God wasn't doing good through it all. Then an unbeliever who is by default controlled by satan, gives over a small part of his life to God, we reject that too. It makes no sense. We should celebrate all the good that is all over. God is showing it many ways, and Christians are missing it cause it's not made perfect yet.

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Really it's both. The Clash is one of my favorite bands and despite them not being Christians a lot of their views were things Jesus preached. So I'm thankful for the pleasure and like I said not to the bands.

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

But what fails for me...must it fail for all other Christians? I'm always for Christian artists putting more thought in what they put out, but I don't think they have to fit the broader definition of "good" theology that go beyond core beliefs. Maybe here's were the real disagreement lies. I believe in the Bible's authority, but I don't think every Bible-believing Christian who is sincerely seeking to understand it will come to the same conclusions about many things. Why God allows this confusion over His word? Don't ask me. To use the "absurd" example again, what one person thinks is totally contrary to scripture, another sees as a good metaphor in line with scripture that spurs their faith. You see why we can't just say "they're on the wrong side of the biblical issue therefore that band is terrible"? 

" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. "


I understand what your saying. But I think anyone who is trying to convey something from the Word ( whether in song or sermon ) should be held to the same standard as a teacher. I know this is not as popular idea today in this post modern word. And even the church has been influence by the " whats true for you may not be true for me. " Plus, i'm not talking about deep theology per se. Write about what you know about the scriptures. But if a song writer is not sure about something, then they should stick with what they do know.

..even metal bands have a platform and influence. Doesn't God hold people accountable for that influnce ?

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

"Christian" artists and basically all artists in general should NOT be held to the same standard as spiritual teachers. In fact, I might even disagree with the standard you use for teachers. Teachers are teachers only of what they've studied and what you want to learn from them. I go to a spiritual teacher to get answers for my spiritual life. If I don't agree with a teacher in anything he says, then it's a useless student-teacher relationship. Musical artists "teach" me, but about what they know...which is usually little more than music. I'm inspired by their guitar playing, lyrical poetry, but not necessarily for 100% correct doctrine. I take what I do agree with and meditate on these things. Anything I don't agree with...is it going to cause me to sin? Fall away from the faith? Of course not, it just reminds me that other Christians believe the same gospel with different supporting facts. A Christian artist is no different then a fellow believer sharing his heart through his lyrics.

If they are held to a different standard why does stuff like Brides theology make waves among christian metal fans ?

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Really it's both. The Clash is one of my favorite bands and despite them not being Christians a lot of their views were things Jesus preached. So I'm thankful for the pleasure and like I said not to the bands.

I think the post modern view totally misses the point of the person and work of Christ, and the Clash is probably no exception. I would be curious of which Clash songs you feel reflect Jesus' teachings though. Look, I like the Clash too on a purely artistic level, but I can't say I can get Christian truth from them. And i'm talking real christian truth. Not anti racism and pro working class songs with its origins in self righteousness.