Why don't more Christian metal bands write songs like this?

DevZor wrote:Tourniquet "theodicy on trial" The story of Job.

That song is a great example of one written from a biblical story where can get some intent form its author.

Satan called upon the Lord
"I must perform a test
To prove that fath in God
Is contingent on being blessed"

One of the richest men of the second millennium
Job was stripped of all his wealth
Three daughters and seven sons
He tore his robe
And shaved his head
Fell to the ground, worshipped God and said:

I was neked when I came here
I'll be naked when I leave here
The Lord gave it
So He can take it
All away

Satan called upon the Lord
"Give me one more test
Grant that I may strike his flesh
And at you he'll shake his fist"

From head to toe black boils
Were pregnant on his skin
His breath was super roached
Stomach caving in
Detested and forsaken by family and friends
His wife said, "Curse your God
And let yourself be dead! "

I didn't ask you
If I could come here
So I cannot ask the
Condition that I leave here
I don't remember
Planning my existence
But why have you forsaken me?

Rewarded for his faithfulness
Job was give back his wealth
Twice the riches as before
Then God gave His discourse:

Where were you when I
Laid the foundations
Dug the oceans
And set it's limits?
Were you around when I
Plotted constellations?
Answer me!

He who puts the Lord on trial
Puts himself on the stand




Thats a good example of how a artist can use scripture to entertain and teach the meaning of scripture.

Gandalf the White wrote:

Why? If God gives me the gift to write songs, and people listen to them and are edified, why does it automatically mean I've missed the point if that song is about giants or war?

Edified ? Or just entertained ? Do Christians in this entertainment-driven society even know the difference anymore ?

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Why? If God gives me the gift to write songs, and people listen to them and are edified, why does it automatically mean I've missed the point if that song is about giants or war?

Edified ? Or just entertained ? Do Christians in this entertainment-driven society even know the difference anymore ?

Why must one negate the other? Can't I read a book (even a secular one) and be edified in some way? Can't I listen to The Clash and have my faith be made stronger in some way?

My point is that it's not really my call what builds up your faith. The inverse is true. That means I can't say what would be a good idea for a song that has a biblical story. And again... the inverse is true.

My bigger point is that there are too many Christians who point out what's right for others when they need to worry about working out their own salvation.

sentient 6

Edified ? Or just entertained ? Do Christians in this entertainment-driven society even know the difference anymore ?

I have had many times when I started wondering about the whole entertainment thing...

Dvds, pro sports, video games, cds, tv, etc etc 

It is amazing how much of our time, energy, and money we sink into things so meaningless (in the grand scheme). I am incredibly guilty of this myself, as I have been a "collector" of MANY things...dvds/cds/magazines/cards etc etc..

Definitely cuts down on the amount of time one spends in the Word or in prayer.

Gandalf the White wrote:

Why must one negate the other? Can't I read a book (even a secular one) and be edified in some way? Can't I listen to The Clash and have my faith be made stronger in some way?

My point is that it's not really my call what builds up your faith. The inverse is true. That means I can't say what would be a good idea for a song that has a biblical story. And again... the inverse is true.

My bigger point is that there are too many Christians who point out what's right for others when they need to worry about working out their own salvation.

We probably may disagree on what " edify ( in the christian sense )" and " building up your faith " means.

NoOneIsHere wrote:I have had many times when I started wondering about the whole entertainment thing...

Dvds, pro sports, video games, cds, tv, etc etc 

It is amazing how much of our time, energy, and money we sink into things so meaningless (in the grand scheme). I am incredibly guilty of this myself, as I have been a "collector" of MANY things...dvds/cds/magazines/cards etc etc..

Definitely cuts down on the amount of time one spends in the Word or in prayer.

Sure. And all i'm saying is that alot times we mistake the pleasure of " entertainment " for real spiritual edification. A fully admit that when I listen to some music for the simple pleasure of it. But at the same time I don't believe I am getting anything " spiritual " ( yes, I hate that cliche ) out of it or that i'm worshipping God in that moment.

.....mmm.....in light of this subject, the " rappers " may be doing a better job than the metal bands.

......I wish there were some metal bands that had lyrics like this. If anyone knows of any....please share.

BearDad wrote:

+1

Rob Rock writes songs about the apocalypse, fighting hell, etc. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Also, one could write songs about the spiritual battles and the warriors that fight them as portrayed by Frank Paretti. Or how about a metal song about the confrontation between Elijah and the prophets of Baal.

The question is, if he has songs like " fighting hell " and etc, is that more about metal cliches ( and christian ones ) or real scriptural truth ?

....just askin'.....you guys can answer that for yourselves.

I wonder if we're looking at this all with too narrow a perspective...  By that I mean, the Bible covers a pretty broad range of topics.  Heck, there are pages and pages of just names - which to most any of us, is quite boring and not very applicable, nor does it say much about God's character, etc.  However, those records are important in their own right and help paint a much fuller picture of God and the redemption of His children.

And so, if we look at just one band or one album or one song that is about overcoming demons (which is far more "metal" than Jesus washing His disciples' feet for example), then yes, it is rather void of the focus of God's Word, i.e. His love, mercy, and grace for us.  But if we take a step back and take into account the many aspects of musical worship, we begin to see the full picture a little more clear: the awe and respect of God in the classic hymns, defeat of Satan in metal, friendly feel-good mushy love from Christian soft-rock, the intimacy of His love in the indie singer/songwriter scene, etc.

None of the authors of the Bible covered EVERYTHING in their respective books/letters, but when culminated together, the history, poetry, prophecies, gospels, and letters all create a balanced and fuller image of who God is and His love for us.  So perhaps in music, it's similar?

I dunno, I was kinda just thinking as I typed haha.

Kerrick --

I know you mean well.  I KNOW you do.

BUT!

But if you continue these good-natured, kind, thoughtful posts, message boards will die forever and the internet will never be the same.

Think long-term, bro.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Why must one negate the other? Can't I read a book (even a secular one) and be edified in some way? Can't I listen to The Clash and have my faith be made stronger in some way?

My point is that it's not really my call what builds up your faith. The inverse is true. That means I can't say what would be a good idea for a song that has a biblical story. And again... the inverse is true.

My bigger point is that there are too many Christians who point out what's right for others when they need to worry about working out their own salvation.

We probably may disagree on what " edify ( in the christian sense )" and " building up your faith " means.

Well sure. We can't even agree on what the word "world" means...

NoOneIsHere wrote:sentient 6

Edified ? Or just entertained ? Do Christians in this entertainment-driven society even know the difference anymore ?

I have had many times when I started wondering about the whole entertainment thing...

Dvds, pro sports, video games, cds, tv, etc etc 

It is amazing how much of our time, energy, and money we sink into things so meaningless (in the grand scheme). I am incredibly guilty of this myself, as I have been a "collector" of MANY things...dvds/cds/magazines/cards etc etc..

Definitely cuts down on the amount of time one spends in the Word or in prayer.

Here's a skit I've posted before that is entertaining, didactic, and which I think is pertinent your thoughts.
https://screen.yahoo.com/star-trek-convention-000000768.html
"Colossal waste of time"

sentient 6 wrote:.....mmm.....in light of this subject, the " rappers " may be doing a better job than the metal bands.

......I wish there were some metal bands that had lyrics like this. If anyone knows of any....please share.

One can only hope.


It seems to me that there are very few on Earth who ascertain the depths of the faith and who of them are musicians?

Gandalf the White wrote:

Grindboy wrote:

messiaen77 wrote: A lot of people think it is entirely up to us to get people to understand the Gospel, when in reality it doesn't have anything to do with us.  We praise an Almighty God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth.  We love God the Son, conqueror of Death, Hell, and the Grave.  But in a practical sense, many of us believe God the Spirit is virtually impotent and cannot accomplish the work of God on earth and relies on us to get it done.

Really?  Who believes this?  Would anybody raise their hand and say "Yes, this is a fair and accurate representation of my beliefs"?  If you're pointing out the dis-harmony with which you find yourself struggling in your own thoughts, prayers, and actions in an effort to be transparent and move yourself forward, then I commend you.  If this is referencing the supposed positions of others, I would suggest that it's unfair and mischaracterized.

Not to speak out of turn, much less for someone else, but while I think no one would raise their hand and admit to this, I think it's a fairly accurate representation of much of Christian music (and movies, and books...).

That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I don't think me77 was talking about himself. I think he was pointing out that Jesus commanded us to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength but most Christian media stops us from the mind activity....

Thanks Gandalf!

Of course no one would raise their hand and admit it, but I wasn't talking about an accepted belief system.  That's why I said "in a practical sense"--people may not think they believe that way, but that is exactly how it plays out.  When we think about how "we" bring people to Christ, when we think about how "we" overcome sin, when we engage in "scientific" arguments to "prove" the existence of God...we are essentially saying it is all on us to do the work of God through our own efforts.  There are a lot of Christians in this world who have an intellectual acceptance of the Holy Spirit, but don't let that sink into the way they approach their lives.  They think they are responsible for convincing people that the Gospel is true, that what Jesus said about himself is true, that the Bible is true, and that God is real.  They believe that to be "better Christians" they have to work harder, read the Bible more, pray more, win more souls for Christ...that is exactly why so many Christians feel defeated in their every day life.  How many people have you come across that are down on themselves because they don't read the Bible "as much as they should" or have never lead anyone to Christ.  A lot of churches and pastors have made Christianity into something WE do rather than something GOD does THROUGH US.  There is a HUUUUUUGE difference there.  Bringing it back to what my post was addressing, we think we have to make everything we say as Christians about the Bible so crystal-clear that there is no possible way anyone could think anything other than the "truth" about it.  Jesus taught using open-ended parables and in many cases, just left them hanging out there without an interpretation.  We think even the interpretations Jesus gave need further interpretation so that no one believes the wrong thing.  We refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit can work just fine without us yammering on about what things are supposed to mean.

messiaen77 wrote:

They believe that to be "better Christians" they have to work harder, read the Bible more, pray more, win more souls for Christ...that is exactly why so many Christians feel defeated in their every day life.  How many people have you come across that are down on themselves because they don't read the Bible "as much as they should" or have never lead anyone to Christ.  

While it isn't good to be down on yourself for it or feel that you have to "work harder" at it, it also is bad to be too cavalier about it and not realize how important it is to invest the time into it. I think too many times today it seems people are falling into one of those two extremes.

messiaen77 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Grindboy wrote:

messiaen77 wrote: A lot of people think it is entirely up to us to get people to understand the Gospel, when in reality it doesn't have anything to do with us.  We praise an Almighty God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth.  We love God the Son, conqueror of Death, Hell, and the Grave.  But in a practical sense, many of us believe God the Spirit is virtually impotent and cannot accomplish the work of God on earth and relies on us to get it done.

Really?  Who believes this?  Would anybody raise their hand and say "Yes, this is a fair and accurate representation of my beliefs"?  If you're pointing out the dis-harmony with which you find yourself struggling in your own thoughts, prayers, and actions in an effort to be transparent and move yourself forward, then I commend you.  If this is referencing the supposed positions of others, I would suggest that it's unfair and mischaracterized.

Not to speak out of turn, much less for someone else, but while I think no one would raise their hand and admit to this, I think it's a fairly accurate representation of much of Christian music (and movies, and books...).

That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I don't think me77 was talking about himself. I think he was pointing out that Jesus commanded us to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength but most Christian media stops us from the mind activity....

Thanks Gandalf!

Of course no one would raise their hand and admit it, but I wasn't talking about an accepted belief system.  That's why I said "in a practical sense"--people may not think they believe that way, but that is exactly how it plays out.  When we think about how "we" bring people to Christ, when we think about how "we" overcome sin, when we engage in "scientific" arguments to "prove" the existence of God...we are essentially saying it is all on us to do the work of God through our own efforts.  There are a lot of Christians in this world who have an intellectual acceptance of the Holy Spirit, but don't let that sink into the way they approach their lives.  They think they are responsible for convincing people that the Gospel is true, that what Jesus said about himself is true, that the Bible is true, and that God is real.  They believe that to be "better Christians" they have to work harder, read the Bible more, pray more, win more souls for Christ...that is exactly why so many Christians feel defeated in their every day life.  How many people have you come across that are down on themselves because they don't read the Bible "as much as they should" or have never lead anyone to Christ.  A lot of churches and pastors have made Christianity into something WE do rather than something GOD does THROUGH US.  There is a HUUUUUUGE difference there.  Bringing it back to what my post was addressing, we think we have to make everything we say as Christians about the Bible so crystal-clear that there is no possible way anyone could think anything other than the "truth" about it.  Jesus taught using open-ended parables and in many cases, just left them hanging out there without an interpretation.  We think even the interpretations Jesus gave need further interpretation so that no one believes the wrong thing.  We refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit can work just fine without us yammering on about what things are supposed to mean.

Good reminder. I myself agree with your main point, though this goes deeper into things I'm not sure many here would agree with. This is as you said heavily tied to your theology of the Holy Spirit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Christians who don't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit like healing, prophecy, tongues etc. usually do think it is up to us knowing the Bible, saying the right things and doing our best to win people over to Christ. I don't want to go into all that. But ask yourself. When you read the NT about apostles being filled with the spirit and doing miracles, etc, does it still not read like they put in a lot of effort? At the core it is all God's doing (we are His creations, so we can't really claim what we do either), but I'd say we play a role though logically is still God doing it. My interpretation is that bottomline for everything...the reason God created us, the reason Jesus came down to save us, etc...is God wants our relationship. The Holy Spirit doesn't possess us like a demon would. He lives in us and gives us his qualities. It's a result of our openness to Him. If you believe in freewill, a reason why God doesn't just do everything his way and do away with evil, and why he even put us faulty humans in charge of a mission that we will inevitably fail doing, it makes sense that we do play an active role in evangelizing, etc. It takes getting up in the morning and doing what is right when you don't feel like it. It takes praying and praying when you don't hear God talking. It takes studying the word with faith that he will show you what you need to hear that day. It takes courage to speak to someone about the Lord, but knowing it's Him that's going to do the convicting. It takes little steps of faith all the time that are more than just saying "I have faith", and that is our offering/sacrifice that pleases the Lord and unleashes His power.  

That being said, we can do nothing of worth "on our own", which I gather is what you're saying. Many Christians do live as if they are alone including myself. I've tried arguing with atheists like you said with logical arguments for God and against lots of atheistic inconsistencies, but in the end, even when I show them that Christians aren't dumb and some things in atheism make no sense, they still refuse to accept any of it. It's a spiritual war for their souls, and we can only fight spiritual battles through the Holy Spirit. That's why our relationship with him...our daily devotions, our worship in all things...is so essential. We need God for everything, and he just asks us to do a little.

Now...let me say a little about Christian metal so this doesn't solely belong in the theology section  I understand the concern that some of it sounds too focused on using "metal" sounding Christian themes, but who's to judge the artists' hearts? If it says something like "PUNCH SATAN IN THE FACE!" my first thought is "good luck trying!" and my second is "this is just an excuse for moshers to get wild at a concert." But if that lyric hits home for someone and convinces them to stop doing drugs and thereby "punching satan in the face", awesome! If it sounds too much like a Christianized metal cliche for you, don't listen to it. When I've been talking about not liking Christian metal lyrics I've been talking from an artistic perspective, not if it's right or wrong.

On that same note, ask yourself why we're drawing clear distinctions between secular artists using the Bible and Christian artists using the same Bible. If you discovered that...DELIVERANCE wrote "Creeping Death", would it make it a more "holy" song? Better for thinking about God (I call it worship, but some are a bit stricter)? This is why non-Christians aren't feeling the love they should from the Christian community. We criticize them for doing things that are wrong AND for things that are right.

Again, I'm on a huge wave, but please put up with me one more moment. It's like when Christian bosses say they don't want to give normal, non-religious or special-requirement jobs to someone who is gay. Really? I understand not in the church because that will inhibit them from conveying the doctrine of the church. That's basically a job requirement. But if you don't do one thing right in your whole life, now the things you DO do right...be it work as a cashier, or a salesman, or a pilot...now you can't do that either because your boss is a Christian who is against gay marriage? Where's the unconditional love? Jesus went to Zacchaeus' house before he stopped being a corrupt tax collector. That doesn't mean he supports fraudulent tax collecting. It means he loves Zacchaeus. You guys feel me?

Grindboy wrote:Kerrick --

I know you mean well.  I KNOW you do.

BUT!

But if you continue these good-natured, kind, thoughtful posts, message boards will die forever and the internet will never be the same.

Think long-term, bro.

Sorry dude, I'll try to be more argumentative... 

Friday13th wrote:You guys feel me?

Yeah. Good points.

sentient 6 wrote:

@39:00 right on the money...

Friday13th wrote:

"PUNCH SATAN IN THE FACE!" my first thought is "good luck trying!" and my second is "this is just an excuse for moshers to get wild at a concert." But if that lyric hits home for someone and convinces them to stop doing drugs and thereby "punching satan in the face", awesome! If it sounds too much like a Christianized metal cliche for you, don't listen to it. When I've been talking about not liking Christian metal lyrics I've been talking from an artistic perspective, not if it's right or wrong.

Jude 1 .."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 

For a Christian, if the lyrics totally convey the opposite attitude ( like your example here ) found in scripture, we should make a judgment on it. Christians that make " christian " art ( in opposite of secular themes ) should be basing their principles on the Word of God, since that is the Protestants source of authority from God. We should never settle for unscriptural cliches that the world embraces. I guess we can of course if we just want the music for " rocking out, " but I don't believe we should if its given to us under the pretense of teaching, worship or building up in the faith in general.

Kerrick wrote:

Grindboy wrote:Kerrick --

I know you mean well.  I KNOW you do.

BUT!

But if you continue these good-natured, kind, thoughtful posts, message boards will die forever and the internet will never be the same.

Think long-term, bro.

Sorry dude, I'll try to be more argumentative... 

No you won't. (Just trying to help...)

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

"PUNCH SATAN IN THE FACE!" my first thought is "good luck trying!" and my second is "this is just an excuse for moshers to get wild at a concert." But if that lyric hits home for someone and convinces them to stop doing drugs and thereby "punching satan in the face", awesome! If it sounds too much like a Christianized metal cliche for you, don't listen to it. When I've been talking about not liking Christian metal lyrics I've been talking from an artistic perspective, not if it's right or wrong.

Jude 1 .."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 

For a Christian, if the lyrics totally convey the opposite attitude ( like your example here ) found in scripture, we should make a judgment on it. Christians that make " christian " art ( in opposite of secular themes ) should be basing their principles on the Word of God, since that is the Protestants source of authority from God. We should never settle for unscriptural cliches that the world embraces. I guess we can of course if we just want the music for " rocking out, " but I don't believe we should if its given to us under the pretense of teaching, worship or building up in the faith in general.

I'll ask again. Why does one negate the other? If I listen to music and am entertained, why can't that edify me or build me up?

When I listen to certain bands, even secular ones, I'm reminded of how amazing this gift we call music is. And I become thankful.

But not to the artists. To God.

So, even when I listen to The Clash or The Ramones or Sublime or Boston, I'm talking with God about it and I'm reminded of how awesome he is. Why must everything about our faith be so serious?

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

"PUNCH SATAN IN THE FACE!" my first thought is "good luck trying!" and my second is "this is just an excuse for moshers to get wild at a concert." But if that lyric hits home for someone and convinces them to stop doing drugs and thereby "punching satan in the face", awesome! If it sounds too much like a Christianized metal cliche for you, don't listen to it. When I've been talking about not liking Christian metal lyrics I've been talking from an artistic perspective, not if it's right or wrong.

Jude 1 .."But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 

For a Christian, if the lyrics totally convey the opposite attitude ( like your example here ) found in scripture, we should make a judgment on it. Christians that make " christian " art ( in opposite of secular themes ) should be basing their principles on the Word of God, since that is the Protestants source of authority from God. We should never settle for unscriptural cliches that the world embraces. I guess we can of course if we just want the music for " rocking out, " but I don't believe we should if its given to us under the pretense of teaching, worship or building up in the faith in general.

I purposefully used an absurd example...maybe some Christian metalcore band out there says this but I don't listen to anything of the sort. It's definitely not a phrase based on scripture, but I don't see how it is "the opposite attitude." I can quote scripture too and point out that Genesis 3:15 says the Seed of the Woman (Jesus) will crush the serpents head. Aren't we supposed to follow in the footsteps of Jesus? As I showed, someone could clearly take it as a metaphor and be built in their faith.  Of course we can't physically hurt Satan. Could someone misunderstand? Yes. I can already envision 3 dudes accidentally knocking their friends in the face because they're not using their brains. Could someone use their brain and be edified by it? Yes. If we at least try to see the value of "Christian" lyrics that are coming from a poetic angle or different light instead of getting hung up on the wording used, we would have a much more enjoyable and edifying experience. 

I agree with your final point, sentient 6, that if a band comes on saying their lyrics always scriptural, worshipful, etc than they should keep their word.

I will say a general wrong attitude I very much dislike in the church is that they give more power to the works of satan in Christians than they do in God in non-Christians. Joseph said in Genesis that his brothers sold him into slavery for evil, but God used it for good. Gods work is more powerful than satan's. If we deny Christian music that is not up to par with our beliefs (aka "contaminated" by satan), why do we reject clear work of God in non-believers? This is acting as if Satan is more powerful than God. Maybe no one says this, but it is the logical conclusion to how we act.

+1 trillion