Re: Why don't more Christian metal bands write songs like this?

by sentient 6 Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:36 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
One, I said what I said because sentient6 said that people need to understand God's nature in order to praise him through music.

No, thats not quite what my point was. We praise and worship God according to how He has revealed Himself. That is included in the revelation of creation and the Word of God that has been preserved to us. Of course people can worship God regardless of what they know about Him, but we should have a strong desire to deepen that knowledge of Him. If God is our greatest reward and goal, then ALL other things we could write about pales in comparison.

by sentient 6 Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:01 am

Gandalf the White wrote:
Another example - Michael Knott has been the black sheep of the Christian music industry for years. Why? Because he talked about his divorce and his struggle with alcoholism in his lyrics. Honest, heartfelt cries to God for help made him an outcast.

There is nothing wrong with talking about topics like this in songs. But if there is no biblical way of dealing with such pain and suffering, then what good does it really do for person who is seeking the will of God ? ( and I am not saying this about how Knott has dealt with it )

by Friday13th Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:43 pm

Candlemass wrote:http://kempercrabbmusic.com/the-disconnect-why-evangelicals-make-bad-art-part-the-twenty-fifth/

Woa, this is the same Kemper Crabb that my dad played with all this faux medieval stuff? Man, totally had the guy pegged incorrectly. Cool read.

by Friday13th Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:14 pm

"Since many Evangelicals in their imaginations and doctrine consider Jesus as only or primarily God, rather than the Incarnate God-Man (as fully Human as He is Divine), the importance of the full spectrum of human life ((politics, art, science, etc.) is denigrated as inherently unspiritual and thus spiritually irrelevant. This view inevitably flattens and enshallows reality, resulting in flat and shallow depictions of reality in our artistic expressions, giving these expressions the lie, showing them to be distorted and flawed as art, and rightfully to be ignored. We must return to a fully-orbed, robustly Biblical view of the Incarnation if our art is to be seen as valid and truthful."

"The Complex and Holy God Who deals with His complex and fallen creature, mankind, utilizes all created things, whether fallen or not, to reveal Himself in His Persons or Aspects (Gen. 1; Ps. 19; Rom. 1: 19-21). This means that all these categories of existence (which God uses to reveal Himself to men) are revelatory, communicate the meanings the Creator-God gives them, to His Image-Bearers, mankind. These aspects of Reality, which accurately reflect God’s Created Meanings, are all thus useful and necessary to fulfill God’s Purposes in Reality; thus, all history in all its aspects, is revelatory, speaking accurately to men in all their states of being."

Here you have Kemper's best points. The problem from a theological/philosophical perspective is that Christians in general are afraid to show "what is" along with "what should be", and sometimes we're even wrong about what humanity should be. Common emotions, trials, and circumstances aren't a lesser part of God's plan for our lives. Give the whole story and the whole journey, not just the bright and fluffy parts. Without them it is fake and the world notices. Humanity by itself and in the state of separation from God is not in itself commendable like the world will have you believe. However, all realms of humanity, with all their imperfections, point to God and his answers for ALL OF IT. He doesn't just talk about heaven, avoiding sin etc. and leave us to figure out all the earthly problems on our own. Really, like tons of Christians don't get this.

by Gandalf the White Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:35 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
But in order for a band to be "christian", there must be a certain number of times they explicitly mention Jesus or God in their lyrics right? I mean, just because Neon Horse thanks Jesus in the liner notes doesn't make them a Christian band - their lyrics are too "poetic".

Just think if the Hymn writers of the past took this attitude.

I mentioned this before, but this is just a symptom of some movements in Christianity that desire to be more therapeutically-driven rather than theologically-driven.

You mean if they said "what if we were original and didn't rip off drinking songs for our melodies?" Gosh that would have been horrible.

So does every conversation you have contain Jesus and only Jesus? Like when your boss gives you an assignment do you talk about Jesus? Why hold songwriters to that standard?

by Gandalf the White Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:37 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
So since it isn't meat, it's acceptable for you to "pass judgement on the servant of another" aka me?

Ok Gandalf, let me clarify this ( and it should have been clear about the point of the Clashes lyrics ). I wasn't judging you for listening the band. I was judging your statement that some of the Clashes songs reflect something in Christianity. And that, is something that is fair game to scrutinize from a Biblical perspective.

Ok I see your point. But I still maintain that they can still inspire me to consider Jesus.

by Gandalf the White Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:38 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
I really like how you ignored the rest of my post about how crappy I was treated at my last church (and some of the more concerning issues in this paragraph too) so you could still point out how wrong I was about something. Must make you feel very righteous.

Could I recommend a book to you? It's called Benefit of the Doubt by Greg Boyd. It talks about how how absolute certainty about matters of the faith can become an idol.

Sorry Gandalf, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I guess I need to be more sensitive to where people are coming from. I know my time is usually pretty short on forums so I guess I try to focus on my points. But sometimes it can be at the exspense of peoples feelings.

It's cool. I still recommend the book.

by sentient 6 Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:31 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
You mean if they said "what if we were original and didn't rip off drinking songs for our melodies?" Gosh that would have been horrible.

So does every conversation you have contain Jesus and only Jesus? Like when your boss gives you an assignment do you talk about Jesus? Why hold songwriters to that standard?

As far as the hymns go, i'm talking about lyric content and not music style.

The other statement....arn't we talking about " Christ ian " music ? I would expect songs written that are relevant to Christianity I guess. I guess if a Christian simply wants to be known as a artist and writes about a wide variety of things, they should probably avoid the label of " Christian. " But when someone puts themselves out there specifically as " Christian " I kind of expect songs that reflect our faith ( and I guess I don't mean " faith " in a generic sense, but faith in the message and substance of the Word of God ).

by WildWorld Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:47 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
Another example - Michael Knott has been the black sheep of the Christian music industry for years. Why? Because he talked about his divorce and his struggle with alcoholism in his lyrics. Honest, heartfelt cries to God for help made him an outcast.

There is nothing wrong with talking about topics like this in songs. But if there is no biblical way of dealing with such pain and suffering, then what good does it really do for person who is seeking the will of God ? ( and I am not saying this about how Knott has dealt with it )

Believe it or not, Steve Vai wrote a song like that about asking God for help to get out of drug addiction

by Gandalf the White Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:17 am

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
You mean if they said "what if we were original and didn't rip off drinking songs for our melodies?" Gosh that would have been horrible.

So does every conversation you have contain Jesus and only Jesus? Like when your boss gives you an assignment do you talk about Jesus? Why hold songwriters to that standard?

As far as the hymns go, i'm talking about lyric content and not music style.

The other statement....arn't we talking about " Christ ian " music ? I would expect songs written that are relevant to Christianity I guess. I guess if a Christian simply wants to be known as a artist and writes about a wide variety of things, they should probably avoid the label of " Christian. " But when someone puts themselves out there specifically as " Christian " I kind of expect songs that reflect our faith ( and I guess I don't mean " faith " in a generic sense, but faith in the message and substance of the Word of God ).

Let me expand. From what I recall you're a police officer, right?

So every conversation you have at work isn't about Jesus but what you say and think while at work comes from the viewpoint of someone who believes in Jesus, right?

Why can't Christian music be the same? For instance, we talked about Michael Knott earlier. He has a great tune called Comatose Soul where he talks about wanting to help a friend but for an unnamed reason, he feels helpless - "I wish I had hands, Wish I had hands to heal... this life... this comatose soul..."

Now, he never mentions Jesus. But I know Mike is a believer. So this song, while not mentioning Jesus and maybe even seeming like it's not even about Jesus is really only about one thing. Jesus. Why? Because why else would Mike want to help his friend, if not from his love of Jesus that extends to the friend?

Another example. Neon Horse has a song on hteir second album called "I Don't Need Anything." The lyrics are:
Drop the keys and the ride
At the foot of your door with a little extra
For good measure
A couple rotten kids, a trophy wife, a big ol' dog
A brand new superstar TV
And some papers I've been holdin' onto forever

Here is all that I had
Here is nothing at all
I don't need, I don't need anything

You'll find a brand new table and chairs
Some credit cards - flash 'em if you want
But don't try to buy much
Take the boots and my Sunday suit
Godspeed, fare thee well and all that
But please, please don't keep in touch

So he nevers mentions Jesus in there. But isn't that song about greed and material possessions being an idol? And since it's coming from the viewpoint of Mark Salomon, another Jesus follower, isn't it still Christian music?

My point is that we hold songwriters to a standard that we ourselves don't follow. I know my every conversation isn't about Jesus.

Now, had I pointed to Raft of Dead Monkeys as an example, I could see your objection (with songs like "Kill the Motherfu**** and so forth, even though I understand the point they were making). But am I clearer with my approach?

by messiaen77 Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:41 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
The other statement....arn't we talking about " Christ ian " music ? I would expect songs written that are relevant to Christianity I guess. I guess if a Christian simply wants to be known as a artist and writes about a wide variety of things, they should probably avoid the label of " Christian. " But when someone puts themselves out there specifically as " Christian " I kind of expect songs that reflect our faith ( and I guess I don't mean " faith " in a generic sense, but faith in the message and substance of the Word of God ).

How do you define "relevant to Christianity"?

by messiaen77 Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:48 pm

"If Jesus is the light of the world, there are two kinds of songs you can write. You can write songs about the light or you can write songs about what you can see from the light."

--T Bone Burnett

by Gandalf the White Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:44 am

messiaen77 wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
The other statement....arn't we talking about " Christ ian " music ? I would expect songs written that are relevant to Christianity I guess. I guess if a Christian simply wants to be known as a artist and writes about a wide variety of things, they should probably avoid the label of " Christian. " But when someone puts themselves out there specifically as " Christian " I kind of expect songs that reflect our faith ( and I guess I don't mean " faith " in a generic sense, but faith in the message and substance of the Word of God ).
How do you define "relevant to Christianity"?

by Gandalf the White Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:53 am

As much as I love punk music (it's my favorite style), I just can't get into the Calvinists....

by messiaen77 Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:18 am

Wow, Johnny Calvin would roll over in his grave over those.

by StarFire Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:44 am

I can't tell if those songs were made to make fun of Christian music or if their serious. Shocked

by Gandalf the White Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:39 am

I can't confirm who but one of the members was originally in Ghoti Hook and I'm pretty sure they were all Calvinists.

And the song seems pretty serious to me.

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:57 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
But am I clearer with my approach?

Read....understood....and taken to heart. Smile

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:59 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
The other statement....arn't we talking about " Christ ian " music ? I would expect songs written that are relevant to Christianity I guess. I guess if a Christian simply wants to be known as a artist and writes about a wide variety of things, they should probably avoid the label of " Christian. " But when someone puts themselves out there specifically as " Christian " I kind of expect songs that reflect our faith ( and I guess I don't mean " faith " in a generic sense, but faith in the message and substance of the Word of God ).
How do you define "relevant to Christianity"?

Wow...didn't know about this band.

I just found some new punk rock for my collection.

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:00 pm

messiaen77 wrote:
How do you define "relevant to Christianity"?

Something reflected in the Word of God.

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:03 pm

StarFire wrote:I can't tell if those songs were made to make fun of Christian music or if their serious.

They seem to be directly teaching reformed theology.

...much like rapper Shai Linne does.

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:23 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
Now, he never mentions Jesus. But I know Mike is a believer.

Now if this is true, this is something I truely don't understand. How can someone whos most precious thing is there faith in the Eternal God and His Son Jesus Christ never be inspired to write about that ?

by Gandalf the White Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:50 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
The other statement....arn't we talking about " Christ ian " music ? I would expect songs written that are relevant to Christianity I guess. I guess if a Christian simply wants to be known as a artist and writes about a wide variety of things, they should probably avoid the label of " Christian. " But when someone puts themselves out there specifically as " Christian " I kind of expect songs that reflect our faith ( and I guess I don't mean " faith " in a generic sense, but faith in the message and substance of the Word of God ).
How do you define "relevant to Christianity"?

Wow...didn't know about this band.

I just found some new punk rock for my collection.

Glad I could help...

by Gandalf the White Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:51 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
Now, he never mentions Jesus. But I know Mike is a believer.

Now if this is true, this is something I truely don't understand. How can someone whos most precious thing is there faith in the Eternal God and His Son Jesus Christ never be inspired to write about that ?

but Mike writes about it a lot. I mean, a lot. But my point is that this one particular song doesn't specifically mention Jesus but it's still a Christian song.

by sentient 6 Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:25 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
but Mike writes about it a lot. I mean, a lot. But my point is that this one particular song doesn't specifically mention Jesus but it's still a Christian song.

...misunderstood.....sorry.

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