Why don't more Christian metal bands write songs like this?

Yeah. Basically, I'm saying we are all "stupid" to different degrees. I've met technically autistic guys who I didn't realize had that till a while of knowing them. People created the idea of autism, so why shouldn't we cut slack to someone else who has a similar inability to understand something?

Friday13th wrote:Mental retardation is defined by humans, not God. Maybe it seems odd to you to think we are all in a sense "mentally retarded", but after the fall and especially compared to God we are like mentally retarded six-year olds.

Yep.

Gandalf the White wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

So what about my six year old who doesn't understand the Calvinist vs Arminian debate? Or the Trinity? He can't praise and worship Jesus?

What about mentally retarded people? I guess they can't either?

OK. I think we need to cut some slack to all the bands filled with 6 year olds and mental retards, but the rest have no excuse for their bad theology.

I'm going to take this as a joke... if I do, it's sorta funny. If I don't, it offends me on so many levels... I work with adults who are MR and DD... Plus when s6 said "You can't..." he changed the subject of his argument to include non-musicians because he didn't say "They can't..."...

Sorry man. I know you are going through some tough times lately. I should take that into consideration before I respond with my weird answers.

What I was saying is that I don't think your argument is very valid. Were aren't judging children and people with mental retardation, we are talking about the rest of us. What's our excuse for not understanding theology?

I stumbled across this site. Food for thought.
http://www.humblebeast.com/who-we-are/

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:Mental retardation is defined by humans, not God. Maybe it seems odd to you to think we are all in a sense "mentally retarded", but after the fall and especially compared to God we are like mentally retarded six-year olds.

Yep.

So you're saying yep as in you think it's odd instead of you agree with me? How does that not answer your question over the excuse for "the rest of us?"

Anyways, more Tourniquet that fits the theme of our discussion.

Friday13th wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:Mental retardation is defined by humans, not God. Maybe it seems odd to you to think we are all in a sense "mentally retarded", but after the fall and especially compared to God we are like mentally retarded six-year olds.

Yep.

So you're saying yep as in you think it's odd instead of you agree with me? How does that not answer your question over the excuse for "the rest of us?"

Anyways, more Tourniquet that fits the theme of our discussion.

Yes, I agree with you that relative to God we are like mentally retarded. Sorry I wasn't more explicit. It doesn't answer my point about the rest of us because we aren't charging God with speaking poor theology. We are talking about human beings only. Such, for the "rest of us" with average or higher intelligence, we are well capable of dealing with the issues of theology that children and the mentally retarded cannot grasp. Don't appeal to the lowest denominator to excuse your (one's) bad theology.

Really guys?! First you tip the scale one way with children and retards and then you tip it the other way with God. Let's keep it practical, alright?

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:Mental retardation is defined by humans, not God. Maybe it seems odd to you to think we are all in a sense "mentally retarded", but after the fall and especially compared to God we are like mentally retarded six-year olds.

Yep.

So you're saying yep as in you think it's odd instead of you agree with me? How does that not answer your question over the excuse for "the rest of us?"

Anyways, more Tourniquet that fits the theme of our discussion.

Yes, I agree with you that relative to God we are like mentally retarded. Sorry I wasn't more explicit. It doesn't answer my point about the rest of us because we aren't charging God with speaking poor theology. We are talking about human beings only. Such, for the "rest of us" with average or higher intelligence, we are well capable of dealing with the issues of theology that children and the mentally retarded cannot grasp. Don't appeal to the lowest denominator to excuse your (one's) bad theology.

Really guys?! First you tip the scale one way with children and retards and then you tip it the other way with God. Let's keep it practical, alright?

When did anyone charge God with speaking poor theology? I've always said this issue is a result of the fall of man. Again, I'm trying to raise the question. How do you judge who has average intelligence? Their speech is average? They can get a regular college degree? All I know is I try to find the theology that makes sense to my level of scriptural and logical understanding. What if someone is mentally impaired in a way we haven't given an arbitrary name to? God won't be unfair and judge them because of it. He looks at the heart, and as long as you stand by your convictions because you love God, His word, His Son, etc. and not for any selfish reason He will forgive that. It's not even a sin. The sin is acting superior to another because you think your theology is so much more advanced and correct. Think about his one. When both the stupid servant and the haughty servant stand before God, both of them will be proven stupid, but only the haughty will be the haughty.

messiaen77 wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:In fairness, I don't think it is a problem limited to Christian music.  To find music of real artistic quality ANYWHERE you have to look for it.  Mainstream music is just as banal as Christian music is.  Look at what were supposedly the five best songs this year?  How many of those were great works of art?

You beat me to it. I was thinking of this last night and relates to what GG was saying. I suppose that the system does seem to encourage artist to produce appealing to the lower denominators.

Still, should the children of God not do better? If we are guardians of the truth, shouldn't it affect our art in the best of ways? So, if not, then perhaps it fallows what I have been thinking about immaturity being a restraining factor.

Absolutely!!  Here is a quote I found during my dissertation work that I have really started taking to heart:

Harold Best wrote:We must always remember that the very subversion of quality communicates something about the kind of gospel we are trying to propagate.  If we faithfully followed God’s example, there would no longer be the crassness or cynicism or the throwaway of the false pomp and pretense of art for the ages.  Nor would the Holy Spirit be continually pestered to turn poor work into blessed work.  The Christian musician has no right whatsoever to assume that anything other than the mind of Christ and the Creatorhood of God should guide every note composed, arranged, played, and sung.

Here's my honest opinion on "Christian music" and why I hate the term.  Most of what we talk about as being "Christian music" is really just a means for spreading a message, and that makes it propaganda, not art.  I think there is a place for propaganda, but we shouldn't confuse it with art.  When I listen to music as an art, I'm not looking to be further indoctrinated into a belief system I have already bought into, I'm looking for something that truly edifies me by feeding my soul.  I want something that challenges my mind and inspires me.  I want songs about life.  I want artists to at least convince me they are being real and raw.  I meet God when I listen to Mahler and Miles.  I have deep worship listening to Coltrane and The Civil Wars.  I like Christian metal because it is loud and aggressive and meets a cathartic emotional need.  I prefer it over a lot of secular metal because a lot of secular metal (not all) has a really negative, nihilistic vibe that leaves me feeling more drained than empowered.

I am certainly not saying that Christians can't and don't make that kind of music, write those kinds of songs, or engage me in those ways.  I'm just saying that the mainstream of Christian music is more often than not concerned with being on message so that it can find its way onto K-Love than finding its way into the hearts of a dying world that is desperately clinging to anything in its search for substance and meaning.  Art is adventurous, creative, and pushes boundaries because it seeks to edify and inspire.  Propaganda is safe, predictable, and works within the familiar because anything else might distract from the message.  I'm ok with Christian propaganda, but I'm not ok with calling it art.

This plus 1000

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

So what about my six year old who doesn't understand the Calvinist vs Arminian debate? Or the Trinity? He can't praise and worship Jesus?

What about mentally retarded people? I guess they can't either?

OK. I think we need to cut some slack to all the bands filled with 6 year olds and mental retards, but the rest have no excuse for their bad theology.

I'm going to take this as a joke... if I do, it's sorta funny. If I don't, it offends me on so many levels... I work with adults who are MR and DD... Plus when s6 said "You can't..." he changed the subject of his argument to include non-musicians because he didn't say "They can't..."...

Sorry man. I know you are going through some tough times lately. I should take that into consideration before I respond with my weird answers.

What I was saying is that I don't think your argument is very valid. Were aren't judging children and people with mental retardation, we are talking about the rest of us. What's our excuse for not understanding theology?

You end your post with a question I don't have an answer to. I've explained openness to some people and they just don't get it. It's not that they disagree; they simply don't understand. Is it willful misunderstanding? I don't know that either.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

So what about my six year old who doesn't understand the Calvinist vs Arminian debate? Or the Trinity? He can't praise and worship Jesus?

What about mentally retarded people? I guess they can't either?

OK. I think we need to cut some slack to all the bands filled with 6 year olds and mental retards, but the rest have no excuse for their bad theology.

I'm going to take this as a joke... if I do, it's sorta funny. If I don't, it offends me on so many levels... I work with adults who are MR and DD... Plus when s6 said "You can't..." he changed the subject of his argument to include non-musicians because he didn't say "They can't..."...

Sorry man. I know you are going through some tough times lately. I should take that into consideration before I respond with my weird answers.

What I was saying is that I don't think your argument is very valid. Were aren't judging children and people with mental retardation, we are talking about the rest of us. What's our excuse for not understanding theology?

Oh and don't sweat it. We disagree on some things but we're cool.

Ha!  Who ever said you two were cool?!? 

Friday13th wrote:When did anyone charge God with speaking poor theology?

Nobody, but in the context of your answer it comes out that way. Remember were talking about the reasons for the low state of Christian art. One says, what about those who children or retarded should be expected to do well and you say we are all dumb compared to God. I say both of those points aren't relevant.

I've always said this issue is a result of the fall of man. Again, I'm trying to raise the question. How do you judge who has average intelligence? Their speech is average? They can get a regular college degree? All I know is I try to find the theology that makes sense to my level of scriptural and logical understanding. What if someone is mentally impaired in a way we haven't given an arbitrary name to?

IQ tests; Stats: the bell curve.

God won't be unfair and judge them because of it.

The judgment of God isn't even relevant to this topic. You are reading things into this that aren't there.

He looks at the heart, and as long as you stand by your convictions because you love God, His word, His Son, etc. and not for any selfish reason He will forgive that. It's not even a sin. The sin is acting superior to another because you think your theology is so much more advanced and correct. Think about his one. When both the stupid servant and the haughty servant stand before God, both of them will be proven stupid, but only the haughty will be the haughty.

Haughty and stupid aren't comparable. Haughty and humble are comparable. Stupid and smart are comparable. Haughtiness and humility have nothing to do with intelligence as they come from the heart. The only ones who will stand before God are the humble whether stupid or smart.

The Bible and good theology is in the realm of average intelligence. One need not be a genius to understand them. A heart right before God is irrespective of intelligence.

Kerrick wrote:Ha!  Who ever said you two were cool?!? 

Oh crap, Kerrick's here. Everybody start being nice.


I love you all so so much! <3

Would this count in what you're looking for?




However, not all lyrics have to be deep theology. If a band wants to write simplistic Christian lyrics like "Better than pot, Jesus Rocks!"(an actual lyric from Barren Cross), it can still be used to bring people to Jesus.

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:When did anyone charge God with speaking poor theology?

Nobody, but in the context of your answer it comes out that way. Remember were talking about the reasons for the low state of Christian art. One says, what about those who children or retarded should be expected to do well and you say we are all dumb compared to God. I say both of those points aren't relevant.

I've always said this issue is a result of the fall of man. Again, I'm trying to raise the question. How do you judge who has average intelligence? Their speech is average? They can get a regular college degree? All I know is I try to find the theology that makes sense to my level of scriptural and logical understanding. What if someone is mentally impaired in a way we haven't given an arbitrary name to?

IQ tests; Stats: the bell curve.

God won't be unfair and judge them because of it.

The judgment of God isn't even relevant to this topic. You are reading things into this that aren't there.

He looks at the heart, and as long as you stand by your convictions because you love God, His word, His Son, etc. and not for any selfish reason He will forgive that. It's not even a sin. The sin is acting superior to another because you think your theology is so much more advanced and correct. Think about his one. When both the stupid servant and the haughty servant stand before God, both of them will be proven stupid, but only the haughty will be the haughty.

Haughty and stupid aren't comparable. Haughty and humble are comparable. Stupid and smart are comparable. Haughtiness and humility have nothing to do with intelligence as they come from the heart. The only ones who will stand before God are the humble whether stupid or smart.

The Bible and good theology is in the realm of average intelligence. One need not be a genius to understand them. A heart right before God is irrespective of intelligence.

Okay, I'll admit I'm having a hard time following. Maybe sentient 6 wound me up too tight   I understand that the original topic was why Christian artists at large are failing in songwriting and in general arts. I don't think it was about applying correct theology as much as it was about artistic style that wasn't cliche, but we can disagree on that later   I have to ask though. You say the judgement of God isn't relevant to this topic, but the only times I can think when God's opinion isn't relevant might be in the case of personal tastes. But then we're talking about bad/good theology? How is that a personal taste? 

I will say that your statement of "good theology" being in the realm of "average" intelligence is wrong. I don't know how many other ways I can get you to see my point. SUMMARY VERSION OF ALL MY RECENT POSTS: It's not possible to have perfect theology because we're all stupid, so why do we criticize other Christians who are doing their best for not knowing as much as we do? Acceptable theology that covers all the basics is what we should expect, which is what I'm trying to point out. But I'm hearing you and sentient need everything to match up just right with the latest you have discovered before you call it passable. You guys seem to criticize Christians who stick to the basics because they're not going deep enough, but then bash anyone who does attempt to answer those questions but differs from your understanding. 

Do you just want to hear me talk about Christian artists with good theology? I can do that. Thanks to sentient I must scratch Neal Morse though I never heard a stray word in his works. I love Theocracy's "As the World Bleed's" analysis on God's role and human's role in all the bad things we experience. It's really a tough question. It's time and again cited as the #1 reason non-believers don't believe in God, so I'm glad they gave it a good one-two punch instead of letting mistaken atheists like XTC define what God is responsible for.





Again, the immediately above video is an example of terrible theology from secular bands.

Wow am I late to this Theo Realm Thread

Friday13th wrote:Okay, I'll admit I'm having a hard time following.

I see that and I have obviously done a poor job at straitening things out for you. I feel like with my every answer I'm deeper in the hole to explain things.

I understand that the original topic was why Christian artists at large are failing in songwriting and in general arts. I don't think it was about applying correct theology as much as it was about artistic style that wasn't cliche,

Yes

You say the judgement of God isn't relevant to this topic, but the only times I can think when God's opinion isn't relevant might be in the case of personal tastes. But then we're talking about bad/good theology? How is that a personal taste? 

It isn't relevant to the main thread topic. It has only come up as some have said that since children and retards can't understand things well, it isn't fair that God judge them for their mistakes. I'm saying that is silly and non sequitur to this thread.

I will say that your statement of "good theology" being in the realm of "average" intelligence is wrong. I don't know how many other ways I can get you to see my point. SUMMARY VERSION OF ALL MY RECENT POSTS: It's not possible to have perfect theology because we're all stupid, so why do we criticize other Christians who are doing their best for not knowing as much as we do?

You are confusing 'good' with 'perfect.' I said good. I didn't say perfect. I agree that we are incapable of perfect. I'm not here criticizing, I'm here trying to discuss the low state of Christian art. Yes, there is a critical element to my opinion, but don't make the mistake of reading into my opinions a haughty attitude. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are hearing the heart under the floor boards.

Acceptable theology that covers all the basics is what we should expect, which is what I'm trying to point out. 

Yes. Good.

But I'm hearing you and sentient need everything to match up just right with the latest you have discovered before you call it passable. You guys seem to criticize Christians who stick to the basics because they're not going deep enough, but then bash anyone who does attempt to answer those questions but differs from your understanding. 

No, what I have trouble with besides blatant bad theology is Namby Pamby mealy mouth lyrics, things so arcane and cryptic that you have ask really wonder what is really being said while it's labeled Christian, and depressing anguish lyrics that show little power of the gospel. Like I've said already, most of the music I enjoy merely falls into my 'safe' music category. I wish there were more music that is spiritually uplifting such as Theocracy and as the threads topic asks where are the bards, I'd like to discuss the reasons why they are hard to find.

Do you just want to hear me talk about Christian artists with good theology? I can do that. Thanks to sentient I must scratch Neal Morse though I never heard a stray word in his works. I love Theocracy's "As the World Bleed's" analysis on God's role and human's role in all the bad things we experience. It's really a tough question. It's time and again cited as the #1 reason non-believers don't believe in God, so I'm glad they gave it a good one-two punch instead of letting mistaken atheists like XTC define what God is responsible for.

I think you are tripping too hard on what you perceive others opinions to be. Thump thump...

Hardcore Christian wrote:Wow am I late to this Theo Realm Thread

Careful now...

Friday13th wrote:Thanks to sentient I must scratch Neal Morse though I never heard a stray word in his works.

You know you don't need to do that. You can just apply the necessary filter and enjoy what is good. I'm really into that Brazilian Roman Catholic band 'Iahweh' lately. I apply lots of filters and even skip the songs that I can't filter like the praise Mary songs. You know how I've refereed to Theocracy as an example of doing it right and even there I have a single contention with them in 1 of their songs. I just apply the filter and rejoice in the good.

I just wish there were more music that I didn't have to filter to enjoy. Why don't we Christians love God more to announce His glory in our art?

Okay David, thanks. I think I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to misunderstand you or place any motive that wasn't there, but this is the web and I'm not good at keeping track of who posted what. What I'm getting is your starting with Christian artists who we all assume know "good theology", but either are not putting it into songs in a way people can understand or are using generic themes/emotions and indefinite "you" kind of stuff instead. Like most popular Christian modern hard rock bands, to not point any fingers. Yeah, it's not easy explaining why. One is they think they'll alienate their younger fanbase if they go too heavy thematically. Another is they don't want any controversy when someone disagrees on an issue, so the further they stray from the core the more uncomfortable they are. I'm sure unspoken, major Christian label rules have something to do with it. I wouldn't be surprised if the people running those shows are all about the money.

Yes, I agree with the filters. I'm the one here making a fool of myself on and on about Christians having imperfect doctrine. I was merely saying for the sake of all agreeing and because I'm still a little bitter

d@v!d wrote:

It isn't relevant to the main thread topic. It has only come up as some have said that since children and retards can't understand things well, it isn't fair that God judge them for their mistakes. I'm saying that is silly and non sequitur to this thread.

Okay, I need to clarify two points here.

One, I said what I said because sentient6 said that people need to understand God's nature in order to praise him through music. While I understand the context of the conversation, the way he stated his thought, it included non-musicians. If that muddles the conversation, I apologize, but at the same time, it's part of where the conversation went. How often do you talk with someone IRL and the conversation stays exactly on point?

Two, please don't use the term "retards". I really don't think you're trying to be offensive here, but this minimizes people to a diagnosis they have. I used the term "mentally retarded" earlier because that's what the general populace knows and understands but that term is outdated and is being transitioned out of use for those of us in the field. It's become a term to mean "stupid" or "lacking" and isn't used to diagnose but to insult. Sorry for my sensitivity to the use of this word but given that we have almost 70 people on campus and all but 2 have this diagnosis, it affects 40+ hours of my week.

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:Thanks to sentient I must scratch Neal Morse though I never heard a stray word in his works.

You know you don't need to do that. You can just apply the necessary filter and enjoy what is good. I'm really into that Brazilian Roman Catholic band 'Iahweh' lately. I apply lots of filters and even skip the songs that I can't filter like the praise Mary songs. You know how I've refereed to Theocracy as an example of doing it right and even there I have a single contention with them in 1 of their songs. I just apply the filter and rejoice in the good.

I just wish there were more music that I didn't have to filter to enjoy. Why don't we Christians love God more to announce His glory in our art?

How do you filter a band you disagree with very heavily? For instance, I know you are of the Reformed camp - what would you do about a band like Showbread that sings (a lot) about openness ideas? Would you still listen to them, assuming you like the style of the music?

I'm not trying to argue here - I just want to know how others view this kind of thing. My wife doesn't understand how I can listen to some secular music when I disagree with some of their beliefs but I won't listen to an artist that is vocally Reformed in their theology.

Gandalf the White wrote:How do you filter a band you disagree with very heavily? For instance, I know you are of the Reformed camp - what would you do about a band like Showbread that sings (a lot) about openness ideas? Would you still listen to them, assuming you like the style of the music?

With a lot of wincing usually. If I really like what they are doing instrumentally, then I might pretend that the words mean something different or I might lower the volume or make a distracting noise to skip through a particularly bad lyric line.

I'm totally unfamiliar with Showbread, but I gave the example of Iahweh. They sing some things that I find to be shallow or just nonsensical. I can stand to listen to musicians whose messages I disagree with, but I long for better.

I'm not trying to argue here - I just want to know how others view this kind of thing.

I hope that I don't give the impression that I'm so unapproachable. I strive for transparency and diplomacy.

My wife doesn't understand how I can listen to some secular music when I disagree with some of their beliefs but I won't listen to an artist that is vocally Reformed in their theology.

Yes, that does seem a bit inconsistent on the surface, but I think it's just telling of where your passions are. You despise reformed theology more than secularism. Einfach. I think it's fine to know what you will or will not tolerate. I understand the difficulties that people have with reformed theology as I struggle with some of it's implications too; plus you have had some bad church experiences with reformed people (BTW, I've had them too) too which likely adds to the stigma.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:How do you filter a band you disagree with very heavily? For instance, I know you are of the Reformed camp - what would you do about a band like Showbread that sings (a lot) about openness ideas? Would you still listen to them, assuming you like the style of the music?

With a lot of wincing usually. If I really like what they are doing instrumentally, then I might pretend that the words mean something different or I might lower the volume or make a distracting noise to skip through a particularly bad lyric line.

I'm totally unfamiliar with Showbread, but I gave the example of Iahweh. They sing some things that I find to be shallow or just nonsensical. I can stand to listen to musicians whose messages I disagree with, but I long for better.

I'm not trying to argue here - I just want to know how others view this kind of thing.

I hope that I don't give the impression that I'm so unapproachable. I strive for transparency and diplomacy.

My wife doesn't understand how I can listen to some secular music when I disagree with some of their beliefs but I won't listen to an artist that is vocally Reformed in their theology.

Yes, that does seem a bit inconsistent on the surface, but I think it's just telling of where your passions are. You despise reformed theology more than secularism. Einfach. I think it's fine to know what you will or will not tolerate. I understand the difficulties that people have with reformed theology as I struggle with some of it's implications too; plus you have had some bad church experiences with reformed people (BTW, I've had them too) too which likely adds to the stigma.

That makes sense. Showbread is actually who introduced me to openness theology.

You are approachable - I just know my own lack of communication skills and didn't want you to misunderstand my point.

It's not that I despise Reformed thought so much as I think it colors anything else one believes about God - and that's okay. Openness does too. I think it's more that with a secular band, I know that they outright disagree about Jesus - so they're starting on a bad foundation. With a Reformed artist (like LeCrae) it's hard because I feel as though they're starting on a foundation that's good but goes in a direction I can't follow.

I hadn't thought about my experiences adding to the stigma, as you said. I suppose that could be so...