Why don't more Christian metal bands write songs like this?

Gandalf the White wrote:

Do you want my opinion? I think it's because the Church expects believers to fit into a mold. The leaders of the church want good little automotons in the pew and what they don't want is people who think independently and have opinions contrary to the machine. That's why some of the things I believe are uncomfortable to people. You saw how freaked out everyone got when I shared I believe in openness right? That's because the church wants control of us and they do it by "church tradition" and popular teaching, and often they go to Scripture last - and when they do, it's often not in context or distorted just enough that most people - because they're discouraged from loving God with their whole mind - don't notice.

We shouldn't be forming our doctrines for some need to break from traditions and molds. Church traditons are rooted in Truth as long as they are grounded on the Word of God.

d@v!d wrote:

Friday13th wrote:@David I get you. We did go a bit off topic, but these things do happen I think Christians need to find creative ways of sharing truth in exciting, personal ways. Be as Paul says "all things to all people" but not diluting to the point of blandness. What's that look like? Well, time to pull out my favorite Christian artists Take Neal Morse. I think I can conclude that he's more popular among prog and Dream Theater fans than Christians. Why? Take an album like Sola Scriptura. It takes the story of Martin Luther, places it in the prevalent prog medium of the concept album, and touches on subjects like church hypocrisy, faith in face of persecution, trusting God, studying the word, doing what's right when no one agrees...etc. all in a story that any adult can understand. "Christiany" phrases are reduced to a minimum, he's not afraid to say a word like "whore" to drive a point. It's real and not religious for it's own sake.

Yeah, that's the thing. We can name a few good quality artists or examples of art. I'd name pretty much all of Theocracy's songs and especially their song 'Mirror of Souls' as bard, but the question remains as to why there aren't more. You guys seem to be saying that there are more and that we aren't just seeing it for what it is. I don't know.

In fairness, I don't think it is a problem limited to Christian music.  To find music of real artistic quality ANYWHERE you have to look for it.  Mainstream music is just as banal as Christian music is.  Look at what were supposedly the five best songs this year?  How many of those were great works of art?

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Do you want my opinion? I think it's because the Church expects believers to fit into a mold. The leaders of the church want good little automotons in the pew and what they don't want is people who think independently and have opinions contrary to the machine. That's why some of the things I believe are uncomfortable to people. You saw how freaked out everyone got when I shared I believe in openness right? That's because the church wants control of us and they do it by "church tradition" and popular teaching, and often they go to Scripture last - and when they do, it's often not in context or distorted just enough that most people - because they're discouraged from loving God with their whole mind - don't notice.

We shouldn't be forming our doctrines for some need to break from traditions and molds. Church traditons are rooted in Truth as long as they are grounded on the Word of God.

That is the key.  But so much stuff is rooted in human desire and justified with Scripture.

messiaen77 wrote:

Maybe we should stop trying to express Scripture through song at all.  After all, what we "know" about Scripture is really what we "believe is true" about Scripture.

S6, over the years our views have oscillated between quite similar and quite different.  Your view that social justice does not fall under "real Christian truth" is one that will always divide us.

To your first comment, if we are not dealing with what is in scripture in our " christian " music, what will be the source of " christian " content ?

To the other, I will never confuse thee Gospel with the social gospel. One is rooted in the righteousness of Christ, while the other is rooted in self-righteousness.

messiaen77 wrote:
That is the key.  But so much stuff is rooted in human desire and justified with Scripture.

Right. But thats why I am always harping on being more reflective on why we believe what we believe.

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

I've never really liked using this passage in the context of judging what we " like " because it doesn't really address the things that article brings up. We must eat food because our bodies need the nurishment. So if its choice between a hungry belly and some meat that was offered to some idol, its easy to see why many would choose to eat the meat. And since all meat and vegatables come from God as the source of creation, its appropriate to be thankful to God for a full belly. But art deals with ideas and the heart and mind and is not necessary for life but to merely pass time. I know we all feel more strongly about art and music than that, but thats all it is. Don't get me wrong I understand the power of music as I am one who considers himself " addicted " to music. Music is for entertainment and pleasure, so I am questioning how much we can apply this passage to the topic of what Christians seek out for pleasure.

Friday13th wrote:

I'm a fan of the band and I am blissfully unaware of any waves.   Maybe it happens 'cause some people need to loosen their belt and be happy Jesus' name is being glorified? I don't want to make anyone angry, but think about what it's all about. I don't live my life for perfect doctrine because I can clearly see that as close as I try to get it's unattainable.

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:Take Neal Morse. I think I can conclude that he's more popular among prog and Dream Theater fans than Christians. Why?

Well, not holding to Trinitarian view of God isn't gonna help in the " christian " music scene.

Ugh, it's not helping our friendship either, sentient 6. I had no idea this was true until I googled it right now and read some comments by Neal back in 2007. Thank you, Mr. Bubble-Burster!

This makes me examine my values. I am big on core beliefs, but none of Neal's beliefs on the Trinity are evident in his music, so what's the big deal? The man is wrong in one thing so all his work is wrong? I know many Christians don't understand the Trinity (like all of us honestly) so they choose not to believe in it because it's not humanly rational. Does that mean Jesus won't save them because they can't grasp how Jesus is also the Father and the Holy Spirit but...in layman's terms...also not really? I don't think so, even though I do consider that a core Christian belief. It's clear if you study The Bible enough that the Trinity is woven from the OT all the way till the new. Maybe Neal just needs to read some more. God's mysteries are God's mysteries is how I come to an abrupt conclusion.

Again, this illustrates why depending on an artist's beliefs is silly. I had no idea Neal didn't believe in the trinity from anything he's written. Why should we care if the work is good? It's like everyone who held on to words of famous preachers, and then when come to find out they were living double lives...then they disown all their books and cassettes. Human mistakes don't invalidate God's work through humans. If it did God could not work through humans cause we all make mistakes.

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

I'm a fan of the band and I am blissfully unaware of any waves.   Maybe it happens 'cause some people need to loosen their belt and be happy Jesus' name is being glorified? I don't want to make anyone angry, but think about what it's all about. I don't live my life for perfect doctrine because I can clearly see that as close as I try to get it's unattainable.

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

Again sentient 6, you're missing the big questions on this discussion. Theology is important, but it's not needed to the extent you think it is. Yes, like you said, it's important to know so that we can have relationship with God and know why we praise him. But if it was as important as you say it is and we couldn't possibly give God the praise he wants without ALL of it, why didn't he give us all superbrains that can easily understand things like the Trinity? Why do you go to the Bible and have to re-evaluate things you thought you knew? Because we can't know it all and we never will, so we can't act superior to someone who is lower on the understanding scale. Again, if you don't think you need to know it all, which you can't, you're setting an arbitrary amount of theology that is required (that is clearly above salvation and being in communion with God). Imagine if I had to know everything about my mother in order to love her. What would happen if I found out she aced her Chemistry test and could have had a successful career as a chemist? Who cares? What if I found out she actually likes her spaghetti with pesto and I make it for her birthday with meatsauce. Will she get mad at me? I know enough that she's my mother, she loves me, and I love her too. Why do we complicate things. The Bible is very tricky and every day I pray to know it more, but God judges the heart not the brain.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

I've never really liked using this passage in the context of judging what we " like " because it doesn't really address the things that article brings up. We must eat food because our bodies need the nurishment. So if its choice between a hungry belly and some meat that was offered to some idol, its easy to see why many would choose to eat the meat. And since all meat and vegatables come from God as the source of creation, its appropriate to be thankful to God for a full belly. But art deals with ideas and the heart and mind and is not necessary for life but to merely pass time. I know we all feel more strongly about art and music than that, but thats all it is. Don't get me wrong I understand the power of music as I am one who considers himself " addicted " to music. Music is for entertainment and pleasure, so I am questioning how much we can apply this passage to the topic of what Christians seek out for pleasure.

Pretty bad interpretation if you ask me. Only rich people could afford meat, so these were meats for pleasure not because people were starving. Also, if they weren't Paul would rebuke them for being silly martyrs for dying over something so arbitrary. The meat was not created by God any more than a song is created by God. It had to be prepared for a purpose from the raw materials God made. At least you're consistent though. Now I know why you have these very rigid ideas about the kind of things you put up with and which you stay away from.

messiaen77 wrote:In fairness, I don't think it is a problem limited to Christian music.  To find music of real artistic quality ANYWHERE you have to look for it.  Mainstream music is just as banal as Christian music is.  Look at what were supposedly the five best songs this year?  How many of those were great works of art?

You beat me to it. I was thinking of this last night and relates to what GG was saying. I suppose that the system does seem to encourage artist to produce appealing to the lower denominators.

Still, should the children of God not do better? If we are guardians of the truth, shouldn't it affect our art in the best of ways? So, if not, then perhaps it fallows what I have been thinking about immaturity being a restraining factor.

Friday13th wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

I've never really liked using this passage in the context of judging what we " like " because it doesn't really address the things that article brings up. We must eat food because our bodies need the nurishment. So if its choice between a hungry belly and some meat that was offered to some idol, its easy to see why many would choose to eat the meat. And since all meat and vegatables come from God as the source of creation, its appropriate to be thankful to God for a full belly. But art deals with ideas and the heart and mind and is not necessary for life but to merely pass time. I know we all feel more strongly about art and music than that, but thats all it is. Don't get me wrong I understand the power of music as I am one who considers himself " addicted " to music. Music is for entertainment and pleasure, so I am questioning how much we can apply this passage to the topic of what Christians seek out for pleasure.

Pretty bad interpretation if you ask me. Only rich people could afford meat, so these were meats for pleasure not because people were starving. Also, if they weren't Paul would rebuke them for being silly martyrs for dying over something so arbitrary. The meat was not created by God any more than a song is created by God. It had to be prepared for a purpose from the raw materials God made. At least you're consistent though. Now I know why you have these very rigid ideas about the kind of things you put up with and which you stay away from.

Say what!?

Ask me to clarify something and I will, David.

d@v!d wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:In fairness, I don't think it is a problem limited to Christian music.  To find music of real artistic quality ANYWHERE you have to look for it.  Mainstream music is just as banal as Christian music is.  Look at what were supposedly the five best songs this year?  How many of those were great works of art?

You beat me to it. I was thinking of this last night and relates to what GG was saying. I suppose that the system does seem to encourage artist to produce appealing to the lower denominators.

Still, should the children of God not do better? If we are guardians of the truth, shouldn't it affect our art in the best of ways? So, if not, then perhaps it fallows what I have been thinking about immaturity being a restraining factor.

Absolutely!!  Here is a quote I found during my dissertation work that I have really started taking to heart:

Harold Best wrote:We must always remember that the very subversion of quality communicates something about the kind of gospel we are trying to propagate.  If we faithfully followed God’s example, there would no longer be the crassness or cynicism or the throwaway of the false pomp and pretense of art for the ages.  Nor would the Holy Spirit be continually pestered to turn poor work into blessed work.  The Christian musician has no right whatsoever to assume that anything other than the mind of Christ and the Creatorhood of God should guide every note composed, arranged, played, and sung.

Here's my honest opinion on "Christian music" and why I hate the term.  Most of what we talk about as being "Christian music" is really just a means for spreading a message, and that makes it propaganda, not art.  I think there is a place for propaganda, but we shouldn't confuse it with art.  When I listen to music as an art, I'm not looking to be further indoctrinated into a belief system I have already bought into, I'm looking for something that truly edifies me by feeding my soul.  I want something that challenges my mind and inspires me.  I want songs about life.  I want artists to at least convince me they are being real and raw.  I meet God when I listen to Mahler and Miles.  I have deep worship listening to Coltrane and The Civil Wars.  I like Christian metal because it is loud and aggressive and meets a cathartic emotional need.  I prefer it over a lot of secular metal because a lot of secular metal (not all) has a really negative, nihilistic vibe that leaves me feeling more drained than empowered.

I am certainly not saying that Christians can't and don't make that kind of music, write those kinds of songs, or engage me in those ways.  I'm just saying that the mainstream of Christian music is more often than not concerned with being on message so that it can find its way onto K-Love than finding its way into the hearts of a dying world that is desperately clinging to anything in its search for substance and meaning.  Art is adventurous, creative, and pushes boundaries because it seeks to edify and inspire.  Propaganda is safe, predictable, and works within the familiar because anything else might distract from the message.  I'm ok with Christian propaganda, but I'm not ok with calling it art.

Friday13th wrote:Ask me to clarify something and I will, David.

Thanks. I think you're clear enough; it's just to say that I sorely disagree. I don't have the stamina today to go down the hole with you on it though.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Do you want my opinion? I think it's because the Church expects believers to fit into a mold. The leaders of the church want good little automotons in the pew and what they don't want is people who think independently and have opinions contrary to the machine. That's why some of the things I believe are uncomfortable to people. You saw how freaked out everyone got when I shared I believe in openness right? That's because the church wants control of us and they do it by "church tradition" and popular teaching, and often they go to Scripture last - and when they do, it's often not in context or distorted just enough that most people - because they're discouraged from loving God with their whole mind - don't notice.

We shouldn't be forming our doctrines for some need to break from traditions and molds. Church traditons are rooted in Truth as long as they are grounded on the Word of God.

Excellent point. But if those traditions are wrong, because they were thought up by men and not God, I'm still going to discard them. I really like how you ignored the rest of my post about how crappy I was treated at my last church (and some of the more concerning issues in this paragraph too) so you could still point out how wrong I was about something. Must make you feel very righteous.

Could I recommend a book to you? It's called Benefit of the Doubt by Greg Boyd. It talks about how how absolute certainty about matters of the faith can become an idol.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

I've never really liked using this passage in the context of judging what we " like " because it doesn't really address the things that article brings up. We must eat food because our bodies need the nurishment. So if its choice between a hungry belly and some meat that was offered to some idol, its easy to see why many would choose to eat the meat. And since all meat and vegatables come from God as the source of creation, its appropriate to be thankful to God for a full belly. But art deals with ideas and the heart and mind and is not necessary for life but to merely pass time. I know we all feel more strongly about art and music than that, but thats all it is. Don't get me wrong I understand the power of music as I am one who considers himself " addicted " to music. Music is for entertainment and pleasure, so I am questioning how much we can apply this passage to the topic of what Christians seek out for pleasure.

So since it isn't meat, it's acceptable for you to "pass judgement on the servant of another" aka me?

sentient 6 wrote:

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

So what about my six year old who doesn't understand the Calvinist vs Arminian debate? Or the Trinity? He can't praise and worship Jesus?

What about mentally retarded people? I guess they can't either?

Friday13th wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

I've never really liked using this passage in the context of judging what we " like " because it doesn't really address the things that article brings up. We must eat food because our bodies need the nurishment. So if its choice between a hungry belly and some meat that was offered to some idol, its easy to see why many would choose to eat the meat. And since all meat and vegatables come from God as the source of creation, its appropriate to be thankful to God for a full belly. But art deals with ideas and the heart and mind and is not necessary for life but to merely pass time. I know we all feel more strongly about art and music than that, but thats all it is. Don't get me wrong I understand the power of music as I am one who considers himself " addicted " to music. Music is for entertainment and pleasure, so I am questioning how much we can apply this passage to the topic of what Christians seek out for pleasure.

Pretty bad interpretation if you ask me. Only rich people could afford meat, so these were meats for pleasure not because people were starving. Also, if they weren't Paul would rebuke them for being silly martyrs for dying over something so arbitrary. The meat was not created by God any more than a song is created by God. It had to be prepared for a purpose from the raw materials God made. At least you're consistent though. Now I know why you have these very rigid ideas about the kind of things you put up with and which you stay away from.

Good points Friday. Meat for pleasure is not different than music for pleasure.

And sentient6, I see your point but you start your post with the words "I never really liked..." Seems odd for a guy who preaches that we have to fit our theology to the Bible and not the other way around.

sentient 6 wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:

Maybe we should stop trying to express Scripture through song at all.  After all, what we "know" about Scripture is really what we "believe is true" about Scripture.

S6, over the years our views have oscillated between quite similar and quite different.  Your view that social justice does not fall under "real Christian truth" is one that will always divide us.

To your first comment, if we are not dealing with what is in scripture in our " christian " music, what will be the source of " christian " content ?

To the other, I will never confuse thee Gospel with the social gospel. One is rooted in the righteousness of Christ, while the other is rooted in self-righteousness.

To your first response, the Spirit of God working within us.  If we are Christians and are truly seeking to glorify God in our art, do you really think it won't come through?  That the Spirit will not speak to the hearts of the people who partake in it?

To the other, I wasn't talking about "the social gospel," I was talking about the social element of THE Gospel.  The part about true religion being caring for the widows and orphans.  The part about following in the footsteps of Jesus.  Jesus, who made a hated Samaritan the hero of one of his stories.  Who taught of an inverted social order.  Who said that the "sheep" who could truly call him Lord were the ones who cared for "the least of these".  Can you imagine the crapstorm Jesus would set off if he went to a small group at X American Church and told a story where it was the Muslim we should emulate? 

sentient 6 wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:
That is the key.  But so much stuff is rooted in human desire and justified with Scripture.

Right. But thats why I am always harping on being more reflective on why we believe what we believe.

I have no argument with self-reflection, but as Gandalf pointed out, your statement seemed to ignore the whole of his point in order to defend the place of Church Tradition as being rooted in Scripture.  I was simply saying that isn't always the case.

I think this thread needs some more agreements...and good music.

Gandalf the White wrote:So since it isn't meat, it's acceptable for you to "pass judgement on the servant of another" aka me?

You have the right to listen to the Clash.

Their music isn't a crime.

Unless it's Cut the Crap.

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

So what about my six year old who doesn't understand the Calvinist vs Arminian debate? Or the Trinity? He can't praise and worship Jesus?

What about mentally retarded people? I guess they can't either?

OK. I think we need to cut some slack to all the bands filled with 6 year olds and mental retards, but the rest have no excuse for their bad theology.

Mental retardation is defined by humans, not God. Maybe it seems odd to you to think we are all in a sense "mentally retarded", but after the fall and especially compared to God we are like mentally retarded six-year olds.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

If a band doesn't want to get deep in theology and simply wants to glorify and honor Christ with their music that is absolutely great. But what are they honoring and praising Christ for ? You can't praise and worship Christ without understanding something about His nature, person and work and that takes you down the path of theology. Also, the Word of God is our only source of knowledge about who God is...who Christ is. Whether you are talking about the incarnation, the deity of Christ, or the atonement you are dealing with theology. Theology is so important because it helps us understand why we worship God and why we call ourselves " christians " in the first place.

So what about my six year old who doesn't understand the Calvinist vs Arminian debate? Or the Trinity? He can't praise and worship Jesus?

What about mentally retarded people? I guess they can't either?

OK. I think we need to cut some slack to all the bands filled with 6 year olds and mental retards, but the rest have no excuse for their bad theology.

I'm going to take this as a joke... if I do, it's sorta funny. If I don't, it offends me on so many levels... I work with adults who are MR and DD... Plus when s6 said "You can't..." he changed the subject of his argument to include non-musicians because he didn't say "They can't..."...