Why don't more Christian metal bands write songs like this?

That was a great, eye-opening read, Gandalf.  Thanks for sharing the link.

Well sure Neal. I'm glad you liked it.

Gandalf the White wrote:So, even when I listen to The Clash or The Ramones or Sublime or Boston, I'm talking with God about it and I'm reminded of how awesome he is. Why must everything about our faith be so serious?

Did you really just put the Ramones and Boston together in the same sentence like that?

alldatndensum wrote:I am trying to learn how to be a Christian artist.

Well if you are doing this:

I have done albums in the past that were not really up to par.

Then you have already learned...

If:

I am trying to reform myself and write good songs.

Then you are playing the devil's music. Don't do it!



FTR, I do appreciate what you are trying to do. God speed.

Gandalf the White wrote:I guess if they sang about those topics and had more JPM's it'd be okay?

Look, not trying to be rude but I've answered your question as best as I can and you still seem unsatisfied with the answer, to the point of trying to convince me otherwise.

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

From link:

And so, while there seems to be a standard of decency no Jesus-follower can deny, the way we relate to the secular arts is often less straightforward. Most believers would agree having a conversation with an atheist is not a bad thing—indeed, it’s actually a good thing—but once that atheist turns that conversation into a rock song many of the same believers seem to think it suddenly becomes sinful to engage in. All believers agree that reading, studying, even memorizing the Bible is crucial for a Jesus-follower, but if some of the scenes in the Bible were adapted to film many of the same believers seem to think it would be sinful to watch. Where is the meat sacrificed to idols? What does it look like? Is it the same for everyone?

Although this makes some sense, I think it's point deviates from the topic main point.

The spirit of of the topic is the inquiry as to why we Christians/ Christian artist don't excel more in our art. Why don't we aim higher. There seems to be far few too many examples for us to point to like the Veni Domine(BTW, I haven't heard it yet and am trusting his opinion for sake of argument) like Starfire mentioned.

I so much prefer to listen to music that elevates God highly rather than have to apply internal filters to ignore trash and bad doctrine.


I think that the more we grow closer to God and learn to love Him and treasure Him, the less we'll want to have to concern ourselves with the linked argument differentiating be meats sacrificed.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:So, even when I listen to The Clash or The Ramones or Sublime or Boston, I'm talking with God about it and I'm reminded of how awesome he is. Why must everything about our faith be so serious?

Did you really just put the Ramones and Boston together in the same sentence like that?

Yep. Like 'em both.

Yeah, good link Gandalf. I'm not sure I agree with his most extreme examples, but the general ideas makes sense. I never listen to Marilyn Manson because when I hear those words they sound against everything I believe. At that point it seems a waste of God given time to try to make it positive. Maybe if I liked the music I'd think differently, but you'd have to be a lyrical surgeon to take something positive out of that guy.

But mentioning Taylor Swift brings up a good point that I think should be the main point, though he didn't go into it in detail. He said Taylor Swift can be dangerous because we accept it as clean, but in reality it's spreading an incorrect viewpoint that gives young girls who are told "this music is fine" a wrong perspective in many ways. What I think Christians should do is not reject everything but examine everything. Christian music, squeaky-clean country pop, heavy metal...none of it should be considered obviously all good or obviously all bad. It's all made by humans. We pray as His kingdom come, but look around. It happens one step at a time. I see non-believers using the Bible in a positive way by not bashing it or purposefully twisting it is a step towards God's kingdom on earth. We Christians are basically given footstools to spread the gospel. One day we can hear a song written by God and we won't have anything to say but...
 
...but right now nothing we could possibly listen to can be perfect in every way.
Except Theocracy, obviously.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:I guess if they sang about those topics and had more JPM's it'd be okay?

Look, not trying to be rude but I've answered your question as best as I can and you still seem unsatisfied with the answer, to the point of trying to convince me otherwise.

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

From link:

And so, while there seems to be a standard of decency no Jesus-follower can deny, the way we relate to the secular arts is often less straightforward. Most believers would agree having a conversation with an atheist is not a bad thing—indeed, it’s actually a good thing—but once that atheist turns that conversation into a rock song many of the same believers seem to think it suddenly becomes sinful to engage in. All believers agree that reading, studying, even memorizing the Bible is crucial for a Jesus-follower, but if some of the scenes in the Bible were adapted to film many of the same believers seem to think it would be sinful to watch. Where is the meat sacrificed to idols? What does it look like? Is it the same for everyone?

Although this makes some sense, I think it's point deviates from the topic main point.

The spirit of of the topic is the inquiry as to why we Christians/ Christian artist don't excel more in our art. Why don't we aim higher. There seems to be far few too many examples for us to point to like the Veni Domine(BTW, I haven't heard it yet and am trusting his opinion for sake of argument) like Starfire mentioned.

I so much prefer to listen to music that elevates God highly rather than have to apply internal filters to ignore trash and bad doctrine.


I think that the more we grow closer to God and learn to love Him and treasure Him, the less we'll want to have to concern ourselves with the linked argument differentiating be meats sacrificed.

I disagree about his main point. He says in the first sentence the point of the article:

"One topic that’s continued to surface for the past decade or so among Showbread fans is how the Jesus-follower appropriately deals with the “secular” arts, particularly the entertainment industry and content some might deem offensive."

While I agree (as does Josh) about elevating the quality of Christian art, the point of the essay is how we deal with secular art as believers. His big point is that it isn't black/white, yes/no. My own personal conviction may be different than yours, and that's okay.

I also like to listen to music that glorifies God, but I also like good music. While there are many artists that intersect at these two roads in my opinion (Five Iron Frenzy, The Crucified, Agonal, Michael Knott/LSU/Lifesavers, Stavesacre, etc.) often times, they don't (as you've pointed out before). But without just enjoying good music willy-nilly, there needs to be discernment. One of Josh's favorite bands is Nine Inch Nails. I love their music but lyrically, I don't feel freedom to listen to them. And that's okay. My conviction isn't the same as his.

Friday13th wrote:Yeah, good link Gandalf. I'm not sure I agree with his most extreme examples, but the general ideas makes sense. I never listen to Marilyn Manson because when I hear those words they sound against everything I believe. At that point it seems a waste of God given time to try to make it positive. Maybe if I liked the music I'd think differently, but you'd have to be a lyrical surgeon to take something positive out of that guy.

But mentioning Taylor Swift brings up a good point that I think should be the main point, though he didn't go into it in detail. He said Taylor Swift can be dangerous because we accept it as clean, but in reality it's spreading an incorrect viewpoint that gives young girls who are told "this music is fine" a wrong perspective in many ways. What I think Christians should do is not reject everything but examine everything. Christian music, squeaky-clean country pop, heavy metal...none of it should be considered obviously all good or obviously all bad. It's all made by humans. We pray as His kingdom come, but look around. It happens one step at a time. I see non-believers using the Bible in a positive way by not bashing it or purposefully twisting it is a step towards God's kingdom on earth. We Christians are basically given footstools to spread the gospel. One day we can hear a song written by God and we won't have anything to say but...
 
...but right now nothing we could possibly listen to can be perfect in every way.
Except Theocracy, obviously.

I hear you. Josh isn't a theologian but a musician so his writing is going to have that kind of thing.

To be honest, I think Marylin Manson's music shreds. I like it. But like NIN I don't feel freedom to listen to it much because of the lyrics. But I listen to several secular bands...

And yes, we shouldn't just accept certain forms of music because of their labels. I've heard plenty of bad theology (or what I'd consider anti-Biblical) in CCM...

Gandalf the White wrote:I disagree about his main point. He says in the first sentence the point of the article:

I wasn't critiquing the link's thesis. I was saying that it is a distraction from the thread's main point. I'm not interested in one's rational that justifies a race to the bottom. I want to discuss why we aren't racing to the top.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:I disagree about his main point. He says in the first sentence the point of the article:

I wasn't critiquing the link's thesis. I was saying that it is a distraction from the thread's main point. I'm not interested in one's rational that justifies a race to the bottom. I want to discuss why we aren't racing to the top.

Sorry. You're right. But if you look at the context of the posts between sentient6 and myself, there's a clear progression there for how I got to the link... Sorry for derailing.

Gandalf the White wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:I disagree about his main point. He says in the first sentence the point of the article:

I wasn't critiquing the link's thesis. I was saying that it is a distraction from the thread's main point. I'm not interested in one's rational that justifies a race to the bottom. I want to discuss why we aren't racing to the top.

Sorry. You're right. But if you look at the context of the posts between sentient6 and myself, there's a clear progression there for how I got to the link... Sorry for derailing.

So, why do you think that isn't more high art that is more explicit or deep in it representation of the oracle of God?

When I had a Christian band, I was new to the faith and didn't understand much. I had more of a sense that the lyrics in my band weren't to good than I understood them to be poor, but I didn't know how to write so I went along. So, from experience my thought is that it can stem from spiritual immaturity.

Gandalf the White wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:I guess if they sang about those topics and had more JPM's it'd be okay?

Look, not trying to be rude but I've answered your question as best as I can and you still seem unsatisfied with the answer, to the point of trying to convince me otherwise.

I'll leave you with two things:

Romans 14:2-5
One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

And this link, which was not written by me but explains things a bit more.

From link:

And so, while there seems to be a standard of decency no Jesus-follower can deny, the way we relate to the secular arts is often less straightforward. Most believers would agree having a conversation with an atheist is not a bad thing—indeed, it’s actually a good thing—but once that atheist turns that conversation into a rock song many of the same believers seem to think it suddenly becomes sinful to engage in. All believers agree that reading, studying, even memorizing the Bible is crucial for a Jesus-follower, but if some of the scenes in the Bible were adapted to film many of the same believers seem to think it would be sinful to watch. Where is the meat sacrificed to idols? What does it look like? Is it the same for everyone?

Although this makes some sense, I think it's point deviates from the topic main point.

The spirit of of the topic is the inquiry as to why we Christians/ Christian artist don't excel more in our art. Why don't we aim higher. There seems to be far few too many examples for us to point to like the Veni Domine(BTW, I haven't heard it yet and am trusting his opinion for sake of argument) like Starfire mentioned.

I so much prefer to listen to music that elevates God highly rather than have to apply internal filters to ignore trash and bad doctrine.


I think that the more we grow closer to God and learn to love Him and treasure Him, the less we'll want to have to concern ourselves with the linked argument differentiating be meats sacrificed.

I disagree about his main point. He says in the first sentence the point of the article:

"One topic that’s continued to surface for the past decade or so among Showbread fans is how the Jesus-follower appropriately deals with the “secular” arts, particularly the entertainment industry and content some might deem offensive."

While I agree (as does Josh) about elevating the quality of Christian art, the point of the essay is how we deal with secular art as believers. His big point is that it isn't black/white, yes/no. My own personal conviction may be different than yours, and that's okay.

I also like to listen to music that glorifies God, but I also like good music. While there are many artists that intersect at these two roads in my opinion (Five Iron Frenzy, The Crucified, Agonal, Michael Knott/LSU/Lifesavers, Stavesacre, etc.) often times, they don't (as you've pointed out before). But without just enjoying good music willy-nilly, there needs to be discernment. One of Josh's favorite bands is Nine Inch Nails. I love their music but lyrically, I don't feel freedom to listen to them. And that's okay. My conviction isn't the same as his.

^ Gandalf never said deep Christian lyrics can't be good or "high art", David. Speaking truth doesn't mean it's well-put or creative is all.

Some of the best lyrics I've heard or at least that have affected me the most were those that were honest. I don't think it has to be a huge theological discourse in three verses and a chorus. But if thyre honest, it moves me.

Friday13th wrote:
^ Gandalf never said deep Christian lyrics can't be good or "high art", David.

I never said that he did say so. I was just trying to get the thread back on track.

Speaking truth doesn't mean it's well-put or creative is all.

OK, so where are the bards?

Gandalf the White wrote:Some of the best lyrics I've heard or at least that have affected me the most were those that were honest. I don't think it has to be a huge theological discourse in three verses and a chorus. But if thyre honest, it moves me.

I understand that point. It is well understood through your discourse with S6. I think most of us are adept at scraping the bottom, but why aren't we making better art? That's the question I'd like us to explore.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:Some of the best lyrics I've heard or at least that have affected me the most were those that were honest. I don't think it has to be a huge theological discourse in three verses and a chorus. But if thyre honest, it moves me.

I understand that point. It is well understood through your discourse with S6. I think most of us are adept at scraping the bottom, but why aren't we making better art? That's the question I'd like us to explore.

Do you want my opinion? I think it's because the Church expects believers to fit into a mold. The leaders of the church want good little automotons in the pew and what they don't want is people who think independently and have opinions contrary to the machine. That's why some of the things I believe are uncomfortable to people. You saw how freaked out everyone got when I shared I believe in openness right? That's because the church wants control of us and they do it by "church tradition" and popular teaching, and often they go to Scripture last - and when they do, it's often not in context or distorted just enough that most people - because they're discouraged from loving God with their whole mind - don't notice.


Because of this, people do what "good Christians" do. As a result, the CCM industry cranks out the same music over and over. I know a Chris Tomlin song after 10 seconds but I have no idea what album it may be on. Because CCM is what "good Christians" do, they recycle it and people buy it.


But when you have a band of any genre that challenges the status quo, people don't know how to respond. Good example - Five Iron Frenzy has a song called Zen and the Art of Xenophobia. It talks about people that elevate patriotism to the same status of Christian faith - in essence, one can't exist without the other. I've played it for some friends and they just scratched their heads and had nothing to say.

Another example - Michael Knott has been the black sheep of the Christian music industry for years. Why? Because he talked about his divorce and his struggle with alcoholism in his lyrics. Honest, heartfelt cries to God for help made him an outcast.


I say all this because I experienced it too. The church that we left in May of last year - I was ostracized by a group because I said I didn't listen to the local CCM station on the radio. They literally stopped being my friend because of it. I was further ostracized when I said I didn't believe in Calvinism and some of the pastoral staff does. And of course when we left, I lost all my "friends" I had there. I didn't fit the mold and I'm sure as hell not a "good Christian" so I'm out there on the fringes too I guess.

^ sorry to hear, Gandalf. I encourage you to look for another church that isn't so rigid and machine-like. I go to a church that is strong on core beliefs. They still say straight up if something is clearly stated in the Bible as sin etc., but for theology issues like predestination we are given room to study on our own. You can go ask a pastor what he thinks, but he won't act like he is setting you straight if you disagree. No one would condemn you for believing or talking about the things you said (unless you tried to convince everyone of your ideas, then they'd tell you that it's not an official doctrine of the church so only discuss it in private).

@David I get you. We did go a bit off topic, but these things do happen I think Christians need to find creative ways of sharing truth in exciting, personal ways. Be as Paul says "all things to all people" but not diluting to the point of blandness. What's that look like? Well, time to pull out my favorite Christian artists Take Neal Morse. I think I can conclude that he's more popular among prog and Dream Theater fans than Christians. Why? Take an album like Sola Scriptura. It takes the story of Martin Luther, places it in the prevalent prog medium of the concept album, and touches on subjects like church hypocrisy, faith in face of persecution, trusting God, studying the word, doing what's right when no one agrees...etc. all in a story that any adult can understand. "Christiany" phrases are reduced to a minimum, he's not afraid to say a word like "whore" to drive a point. It's real and not religious for it's own sake.

Side note: Even if you're Catholic and feel as if Sola Scriptura is an attack on your faith, Neal and I would say that it's only meant to present that snapshot in church history. He never attacks present day Catholic doctrines (even if Luther was against some of them). Just because the church then is criticized for indulgences, thievery etc. it doesn't mean the modern day Catholic church is guilty of these things. Luther was no perfect man either, so it's just to give a story of the bad things he helped rid the church of, regardless of the unfortunate battle Protestantism v. Catholicism became.

Friday13th wrote:@David I get you. We did go a bit off topic, but these things do happen

I know, I derail threads all the time. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the this thread topic.

Gandalf the White wrote:Do you want my opinion? I think it's because the Church expects believers to fit into a mold. The leaders of the church want good little automotons in the pew and what they don't want is people who think independently and have opinions contrary to the machine. That's why some of the things I believe are uncomfortable to people. You saw how freaked out everyone got when I shared I believe in openness right? That's because the church wants control of us and they do it by "church tradition" and popular teaching, and often they go to Scripture last - and when they do, it's often not in context or distorted just enough that most people - because they're discouraged from loving God with their whole mind - don't notice.


Because of this, people do what "good Christians" do. As a result, the CCM industry cranks out the same music over and over. I know a Chris Tomlin song after 10 seconds but I have no idea what album it may be on. Because CCM is what "good Christians" do, they recycle it and people buy it.


But when you have a band of any genre that challenges the status quo, people don't know how to respond. Good example - Five Iron Frenzy has a song called Zen and the Art of Xenophobia. It talks about people that elevate patriotism to the same status of Christian faith - in essence, one can't exist without the other. I've played it for some friends and they just scratched their heads and had nothing to say.

Another example - Michael Knott has been the black sheep of the Christian music industry for years. Why? Because he talked about his divorce and his struggle with alcoholism in his lyrics. Honest, heartfelt cries to God for help made him an outcast.

I won't argue your point about the CCM mold, but I don't see how that would apply to metal or alternative artists. Isn't Heavy Metal still in the realm of the outsiders? Why would it conform on that level if it still isn't accepted aesthetically?

I say all this because I experienced it too. The church that we left in May of last year - I was ostracized by a group because I said I didn't listen to the local CCM station on the radio. They literally stopped being my friend because of it.

I keep having to leave churches too. No one accepts me because I'm a bully.

I was further ostracized when I said I didn't believe in Calvinism and some of the pastoral staff does. And of course when we left, I lost all my "friends" I had there. I didn't fit the mold and I'm sure as hell not a "good Christian" so I'm out there on the fringes too I guess.

Amazing how people can ascend to an intellectual understanding of truth and yet render it so ineffective in their lives.

Friday13th wrote:@David I get you. We did go a bit off topic, but these things do happen I think Christians need to find creative ways of sharing truth in exciting, personal ways. Be as Paul says "all things to all people" but not diluting to the point of blandness. What's that look like? Well, time to pull out my favorite Christian artists Take Neal Morse. I think I can conclude that he's more popular among prog and Dream Theater fans than Christians. Why? Take an album like Sola Scriptura. It takes the story of Martin Luther, places it in the prevalent prog medium of the concept album, and touches on subjects like church hypocrisy, faith in face of persecution, trusting God, studying the word, doing what's right when no one agrees...etc. all in a story that any adult can understand. "Christiany" phrases are reduced to a minimum, he's not afraid to say a word like "whore" to drive a point. It's real and not religious for it's own sake.

Yeah, that's the thing. We can name a few good quality artists or examples of art. I'd name pretty much all of Theocracy's songs and especially their song 'Mirror of Souls' as bard, but the question remains as to why there aren't more. You guys seem to be saying that there are more and that we aren't just seeing it for what it is. I don't know.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:Do you want my opinion? I think it's because the Church expects believers to fit into a mold. The leaders of the church want good little automotons in the pew and what they don't want is people who think independently and have opinions contrary to the machine. That's why some of the things I believe are uncomfortable to people. You saw how freaked out everyone got when I shared I believe in openness right? That's because the church wants control of us and they do it by "church tradition" and popular teaching, and often they go to Scripture last - and when they do, it's often not in context or distorted just enough that most people - because they're discouraged from loving God with their whole mind - don't notice.


Because of this, people do what "good Christians" do. As a result, the CCM industry cranks out the same music over and over. I know a Chris Tomlin song after 10 seconds but I have no idea what album it may be on. Because CCM is what "good Christians" do, they recycle it and people buy it.


But when you have a band of any genre that challenges the status quo, people don't know how to respond. Good example - Five Iron Frenzy has a song called Zen and the Art of Xenophobia. It talks about people that elevate patriotism to the same status of Christian faith - in essence, one can't exist without the other. I've played it for some friends and they just scratched their heads and had nothing to say.

Another example - Michael Knott has been the black sheep of the Christian music industry for years. Why? Because he talked about his divorce and his struggle with alcoholism in his lyrics. Honest, heartfelt cries to God for help made him an outcast.

I won't argue your point about the CCM mold, but I don't see how that would apply to metal or alternative artists. Isn't Heavy Metal still in the realm of the outsiders? Why would it conform on that level if it still isn't accepted aesthetically?

I say all this because I experienced it too. The church that we left in May of last year - I was ostracized by a group because I said I didn't listen to the local CCM station on the radio. They literally stopped being my friend because of it.

I keep having to leave churches too. No one accepts me because I'm a bully.

I was further ostracized when I said I didn't believe in Calvinism and some of the pastoral staff does. And of course when we left, I lost all my "friends" I had there. I didn't fit the mold and I'm sure as hell not a "good Christian" so I'm out there on the fringes too I guess.

Amazing how people can ascend to an intellectual understanding of truth and yet render it so ineffective in their lives.

Why does this affect heavy metal? Let's be honest - despite it's fringe existence how many people on this board want "real metal" and talk smack about "core"? Even in metal people want a certain mold or format. Remember how bad everyone freaked out when Stryper released Reborn? Or when all those bands went "grunge" in the 90's?

I'll confess that I'm guilty too. When FIF's new album came out in 2013, it took me a while to like it, or even get used to it. But now I love it.

And yes, people can accept something intellectually and not apply it. I'm guilty of this too. I know how to eat healthy and lose weight but I struggle to not eat the wrong things.

Gandalf the White wrote:Why does this affect heavy metal? Let's be honest - despite it's fringe existence how many people on this board want "real metal" and talk smack about "core"? Even in metal people want a certain mold or format. Remember how bad everyone freaked out when Stryper released Reborn? Or when all those bands went "grunge" in the 90's?

It affects HM because HM doesn't fit into the conformist mold. So, I say it counts against your idea that conformity to the CCM mold is, much of a reason, as to why we don't have better art. Well, maybe you are on to something about the way people carry on about styles, like 'core' for example. I don't know.. I still think it has more to do with spiritual immaturity.

And yes, people can accept something intellectually and not apply it. I'm guilty of this too. I know how to eat healthy and lose weight but I struggle to not eat the wrong things.

What I was implying is that those who hold to Calvinistic truths should be the most gracious and humble of people. Sadly, it often isn't the case and more so is rather the opposite as your experience attests.

d@v!d wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:Why does this affect heavy metal? Let's be honest - despite it's fringe existence how many people on this board want "real metal" and talk smack about "core"? Even in metal people want a certain mold or format. Remember how bad everyone freaked out when Stryper released Reborn? Or when all those bands went "grunge" in the 90's?

It affects HM because HM doesn't fit into the conformist mold. So, I say it counts against your idea that conformity to the CCM mold is, much of a reason, as to why we don't have better art. Well, maybe you are on to something about the way people carry on about styles, like 'core' for example. I don't know.. I still think it has more to do with spiritual immaturity.

And yes, people can accept something intellectually and not apply it. I'm guilty of this too. I know how to eat healthy and lose weight but I struggle to not eat the wrong things.

What I was implying is that those who hold to Calvinistic truths should be the most gracious and humble of people. Sadly, it often isn't the case and more so is rather the opposite as your experience attests.

Maybe so about HM. But I'd say there are more bands making good art in HM than CCM - despite the fans crying for "the good ol' days."

Sorry I misunderstood your point about Calvinistic opinions (see what I did there ). I see what you mean and agree - although in all honesty, any believer should be gracious and humble and too many aren't.

Friday13th wrote:Take Neal Morse. I think I can conclude that he's more popular among prog and Dream Theater fans than Christians. Why?

Well, not holding to Trinitarian view of God isn't gonna help in the " christian " music scene.

Grindboy wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Grindboy wrote:

messiaen77 wrote: A lot of people think it is entirely up to us to get people to understand the Gospel, when in reality it doesn't have anything to do with us.  We praise an Almighty God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth.  We love God the Son, conqueror of Death, Hell, and the Grave.  But in a practical sense, many of us believe God the Spirit is virtually impotent and cannot accomplish the work of God on earth and relies on us to get it done.

Really?  Who believes this?  Would anybody raise their hand and say "Yes, this is a fair and accurate representation of my beliefs"?  If you're pointing out the dis-harmony with which you find yourself struggling in your own thoughts, prayers, and actions in an effort to be transparent and move yourself forward, then I commend you.  If this is referencing the supposed positions of others, I would suggest that it's unfair and mischaracterized.

Not to speak out of turn, much less for someone else, but while I think no one would raise their hand and admit to this, I think it's a fairly accurate representation of much of Christian music (and movies, and books...).

That's why all the songs on the CCM station here in town are about the same 6 things. And why a book by a Christian author won't be sold in a Christian bookstore, unless it specifically has an unsaved person come to know Jesus in the book (as a once-aspiring author, I was shocked to find this is actually in the contract of Christian publishers).

I don't think me77 was talking about himself. I think he was pointing out that Jesus commanded us to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength but most Christian media stops us from the mind activity....

Thanks Gandalf!

Of course no one would raise their hand and admit it, but I wasn't talking about an accepted belief system.  That's why I said "in a practical sense"--people may not think they believe that way, but that is exactly how it plays out.  When we think about how "we" bring people to Christ, when we think about how "we" overcome sin, when we engage in "scientific" arguments to "prove" the existence of God...we are essentially saying it is all on us to do the work of God through our own efforts.  There are a lot of Christians in this world who have an intellectual acceptance of the Holy Spirit, but don't let that sink into the way they approach their lives.  They think they are responsible for convincing people that the Gospel is true, that what Jesus said about himself is true, that the Bible is true, and that God is real.  They believe that to be "better Christians" they have to work harder, read the Bible more, pray more, win more souls for Christ...that is exactly why so many Christians feel defeated in their every day life.  How many people have you come across that are down on themselves because they don't read the Bible "as much as they should" or have never lead anyone to Christ.  A lot of churches and pastors have made Christianity into something WE do rather than something GOD does THROUGH US.  There is a HUUUUUUGE difference there.  Bringing it back to what my post was addressing, we think we have to make everything we say as Christians about the Bible so crystal-clear that there is no possible way anyone could think anything other than the "truth" about it.  Jesus taught using open-ended parables and in many cases, just left them hanging out there without an interpretation.  We think even the interpretations Jesus gave need further interpretation so that no one believes the wrong thing.  We refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit can work just fine without us yammering on about what things are supposed to mean.

In general, I feel like we should always represent the position of another in a way that they would agree with.  Otherwise, I feel like we're either misrepresenting their position or claiming to understand somebody else's position better than they do themselves.  I wish it wouldn't happen.  It's terribly easy to make a charicature (sp?) of anybody's belief about anything.  I do understand that this is all basically unquestioned common practice in basically every element of our society. 

That said, I really shouldn't have picked your post, I was probably in a bad mood about something unrelated and it presented as a somewhat snarky message board post, like somebody who has a bad day at work and takes it out on his dog.

No problem.  I didn't think a thing of it.  I do try to represent the beliefs of others in ways that I think they would agree with, but in this case I am talking about a discrepancy between what people say they believe and how they act.  Don't get me wrong, I'm pointing at me too.

sentient 6 wrote:

Friday13th wrote:

But what fails for me...must it fail for all other Christians? I'm always for Christian artists putting more thought in what they put out, but I don't think they have to fit the broader definition of "good" theology that go beyond core beliefs. Maybe here's were the real disagreement lies. I believe in the Bible's authority, but I don't think every Bible-believing Christian who is sincerely seeking to understand it will come to the same conclusions about many things. Why God allows this confusion over His word? Don't ask me. To use the "absurd" example again, what one person thinks is totally contrary to scripture, another sees as a good metaphor in line with scripture that spurs their faith. You see why we can't just say "they're on the wrong side of the biblical issue therefore that band is terrible"? 

" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. "


I understand what your saying. But I think anyone who is trying to convey something from the Word ( whether in song or sermon ) should be held to the same standard as a teacher. I know this is not as popular idea today in this post modern word. And even the church has been influence by the " whats true for you may not be true for me. " Plus, i'm not talking about deep theology per se. Write about what you know about the scriptures. But if a song writer is not sure about something, then they should stick with what they do know.

..even metal bands have a platform and influence. Doesn't God hold people accountable for that influnce ?

Maybe we should stop trying to express Scripture through song at all.  After all, what we "know" about Scripture is really what we "believe is true" about Scripture.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Really it's both. The Clash is one of my favorite bands and despite them not being Christians a lot of their views were things Jesus preached. So I'm thankful for the pleasure and like I said not to the bands.

I think the post modern view totally misses the point of the person and work of Christ, and the Clash is probably no exception. I would be curious of which Clash songs you feel reflect Jesus' teachings though. Look, I like the Clash too on a purely artistic level, but I can't say I can get Christian truth from them. And i'm talking real christian truth. Not anti racism and pro working class songs with its origins in self righteousness.

S6, over the years our views have oscillated between quite similar and quite different.  Your view that social justice does not fall under "real Christian truth" is one that will always divide us.