Are there any Christian bands/songs you avoid because of lyrics?

IBTL!

seth wrote:

Theonymic wrote:

seth wrote:The only ones I can think of that I avoid are some of Theandric’s songs that promote the Catholic view of Mary

Never heard of them, but now I'm curious - Orthodox have a similar, though not identical "view" of the Theotokos.

They have several songs about Mary, but there’s actually only one I can think of right now that crosses the line for me (should have been more clear in the original post), that song is Ozymandias. I’m all for giving Mary the respect she deserves as the mother of Christ

Having just read the lyrics, I am curious. Is it because they call her Queen?

I'll admit that veneration of Mary and the Saints was a real struggle for me for a couple of years after I became Orthodox - the Protestant in me gave up quite a fight!

BaleMaster wrote:IBTL!

Who?

I have read the lyrics. My main issue is that it appears to be a prayer to Mary to give the narrator the humility to approach God, and asking her to show them the Son of Man. This seems to be based on the Catholic view of Mary as a mediator between us and Christ, which is very much unbiblical

Your “inner Protestant” may just be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you that something isn’t right in this situation

seth wrote:I have read the lyrics. My main issue is that it appears to be a prayer to Mary to give the narrator the humility to approach God, and asking her to show them the son of Man. This seems to be based on the Catholic view of Mary as a mediator between us and Christ, which is very much unbiblical

I don't know how much RCs really do believe in Mary as a mediator, so I can't comment on that. But an analogy does come to mind: a lot of people turn to men like Spurgeon and Wright, or perhaps their pastor, for help in understanding Holy Scripture. Are they asking these men to be mediators between them and the Holy Spirit?

Is the angel of Revelation 8:3-4 a mediator?

Is looking at a fellow Christian as an example of humility treating them as a mediator? Is asking a fellow Christian to pray for you treating them as a mediator?

I would think the answer to each of these is no.

Also, remember that the Saints take the place of the fallen angels in the divine council. It's clear from Scripture that such a council exists. Does God need one? Of course not. But being love, He gives His creations a place to co-reign with Him.

Jesus did not need her to tell Him that the wedding feast had run out of wine, and yet He let her bring that request to Him.

The Virgin showed her humility in her "let it be unto me as you have said," and there's no reason to think she can't help others be humble.

seth wrote:Your “inner Protestant” may just be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you that something isn’t right in this situation

I've never had more peace (Phillipians 4:7), nor been more equipped for good works (2 Timothy 3:17), than in the past few years, despite the struggle which is this way of life. I know I'm not going to convince you, but know that I have no doubts that my journey was the right one. I have no regrets about having been raised Protestant, but God called me to the fulness of the Faith.

I don’t think there’s any Biblical case for any form of communication with the dead while on earth, even those we know are in Heaven. There is also not a Biblical case for praying to angels, as you made the case that the saints take the place of fallen angels. And while it’s ok to learn from other Christians and ask for prayer from them, we don’t approach Christ through other, more spiritually high-ranking people. We can approach God boldly because we have been redeemed.

seth wrote:I don’t think there’s any Biblical case for any form of communication with the dead while on earth, even those we know are in Heaven. There is also not a Biblical case for praying to angels, as you made the case that the saints take the place of fallen angels. 

Job 5:1, Rev 20:6

we don’t approach Christ through other, more spiritually high-ranking people. We can approach God boldly because we have been redeemed.

You can do both.

seth wrote:Afaik Catholics don’t believe nonbelievers can be saved after death, but they pray to “lighten the sentences” of believers in purgatory. Still though, even the belief that purgatory exists undermines the power of Christ’s death and resurrection, as it implies that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough and you have to atone for your own sin to some degree

Isn't that what traditional arminian doctrine teaches or pelagian (misspell on that last word) I've always heard it's always somehow still on us even after salvation. I have family who go to snake churches and they believe that a Christian has to reach a state of perfection or they won't get into heaven. It makes for very interesting family reunions especially those who are Baptists decide to speak up lol. It devolves into screaming hurt feelings and chaos

You mean the snake handling churches? Yeah that’s a whole different level of crazy

seth wrote:You mean the snake handling churches? Yeah that’s a whole different level of crazy

Sorry it's late lol yes snake handling churches snakes and drinking poison it's a mess my friend

Seth said:
“In the final judgment, being judged by your works is not to determine whether you receive salvation or damnation. It determines what rewards those who have received salvation will receive in the next life. Jesus Himself teaches on this in much more detail in the sermon on the mount, as does Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. There are multiple books which will be opened on the judgement day, which contain everyone’s works. But there is another book, the Book of Life, separate from the rest, that determines the difference between salvation and damnation.
I think this conversation is going in a similar direction to the one in the “easy believism” thread. You are partially confusing salvation and sanctification, which are interconnected but different. Christians are commanded to do good works, but these come through the process of sanctification that comes along with faith. Jesus did not come to give us a new set of laws that we follow to earn our way to Heaven, He specifically said He did not come to abolish the law (Matthew 5:17). He came to atone for our sin since we are incapable of earning our way to salvation. And there is no indication from Paul’s statement about works not bringing salvation that indicates he was only talking about the law of Moses, but that another set of works did bring salvation. I can’t confirm or deny your statement that many early church figures believed this, but remember these people were not infallible. It is natural part of human nature to think we must earn our salvation (this is a part of literally every other religion in the world other than Christianity), so it is to be expected that people, ancient or modern, would read things into Scripture that aren’t there to arrive at this conclusion.”

Neither 1 Corinthians 3 nor the Seemon on the Mount say anything about Final Judgment for Christians being only for rewards. I had cited 1 Corinthians 3:12–17 as proof that the judgment of works is determinative of salvation or condemnation. If you had simply continued reading after verse 15, Paul says that if anyone destroys his own temple with works that are burned up, God will destroy him. John Chrysostom has a Homily on 1 Corinthians about this, saying 1 Corinthians 3:15-17 is what idea and the person is only saved through fire in the sense of not being annihilated, but remaining alive in conscious torment. So the ancient Greek interpretation is on my side.

Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:29-30 tells his followers that it is better to cut one’s eye or hand off if it is causing us to sin then to be thrown in Gehenna. Not sure how you think that conforms with the belief that Final Judgment has nothing to do with our works or sins after initial salvation.

You also totally ignored all the verses I cited that prove Final Judgment of a Christian is not just for rewards. Paul says plainly in Romans 2:4-16 that all persons will be judged by their works without partiality, and only those who persevere in doing good will receive eternal life, and those who obey unrighteousness will receive indignation and wrath. Paul says plainly in Galatians 6:7-10 that we Christians will only reap eternal life (future tense) if we sow good works by the Holy Spirit, so he urges us to not faint. That not only shows correlation but causation. 2 Corinthians 5:11 says we Christians must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive what is owed on account of works done in the body, whether good or bad. That makes no sense if we only receive good rewards and somehow sins are not counted because of Christ’s blood or something. Revelation 22:12-14 says we will be judged by our works, and blessed are those who do God’s commands (majority text; critical text says wash their robes which is synonymous), that they may have the right to the tree of life. Peter also refutes your claim, since he says in 1 Peter 1:14-18:

“14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16because it is written: “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.”

So Peter plainly believed those who were saved by Christ’s blood still had to obey Christ’s command in the Sermon on the Mount to be Holy as our heavenly Father is holy, and we are to live our lives in fear because of His final judgment of works. How does that make sense, that Peter commands us to live in fear of the knowledge of final judgment, if I am to believe your claim that final judgment is only for extra rewards? Who is afraid of standing before God saved but not receiving extra rewards? We know that’s not what Peter is warning about. As Hebrews 10:26-31 says, “If we willfully sin after reveiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries.” So plainly, Hebrews 10:26-31 teaches that the very thing “Absolution Day” claims will save one who is guilty on all charges, the blood of Christ, is no longer of any effect to one who subsequently falls into willful sin.

The Bible says one can be blotted from the Book of Life (Psalm 69:28; Revelation 3:5). Jesus specifically says in Revelation 3 the churvhes won’t be blotted out of the Book of Life, or spit out of his mouth, if they overcome the trials and persevere in good works, repenting of all evil deeds.

So the doctrine of final judgment is one of the plainest teachings in the Bible, and it teaches that we must not “neglect so great a salvation” (Hebrews 2:3) by willful sin but rather persevere in walking in the Spirit and doing the commandments of Christ. We will reap, as Deliverance repeats from Galatians 6:7-10: “If We Faint Not.”

Paul tells us our relation with the Law of Moses in Romans 2 and Galatians 5-6. We obey its moral precepts, but not its physical commands to be circumcised, Sabbaths, etc. This is an important topic because I’ve never met a person who had bad soteriology and didn’t also conflate the laws of Moses and Christ even though the Bible labors to distinguish them. But obviously, you don’t obey the seventh day sabbath command of Exodus, do you? Then you understand that we don’t obey the Law of Moses in every literal command. We do obey Jesus in every literal command.

Seth, when you start dismissing what early Christians believed before hearing the reason, saying its the natural error of man to want to earn his own salvation, you are engaging in what CS Lewis called a “bulverism” fallacy. Instead of engaging whether or not the Bible says what they believed, you impugn the motives of those who disagree with you. I can also play that game, and more effectively. The Bible never once warns that the problem with humans is they want to earn their salvation. I don’t teach we earn our salvation. I teach we are responsible to not neglect so great a salvation as Hebrews 2:3 says. But the Bible actually warns that humans want to receive the benefits God offers without needing to obey Him. “Why do you call me Lord, and do not do the things I say?” As Jeremiah rebuked the false prophets, they promised destruction would not befall Judaea even though they lived in sin. That is the front to back message of the Bible. If we are using bulverisms, I could likewise say you need to watch out because you only were taufht final judgment is for rewards because your human teachers naturally want to reap benefits without having to obey the true God.

If someone could tell me how many good works I need and exactly how perfect they need to be and how often I need to do them and how exactly Christ remains Savior in this scheme, that would be great.

Pethead wrote:If someone could tell me how many good works I need and exactly how perfect they need to be and how often I need to do them and how exactly Christ remains Savior in this scheme, that would be great.

That’s the Beard Fallacy. Just like we can’t say the exact moment or millimeters of hair growth are required before a clean shaven man grows a beard, yet there is a real distinction between a bearded man and a clean shaven man, we don’t need to answer your question with the precision you ask for. I can explain how it works in general. Ezekiel 18 and 1 John 1 and 2 are crucial.

I’ve heard some Christians go as far as deny that gluttony is a sin based on your logic. If “eating too much” is different for every person and the line is hazy whether two, three, or ten donuts is too many, they suppose there is no distinction between eating and gluttony. If you admit gluttony is a sin, then you can admit a person can be considered righteous or sinful based on their works. 

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
- 1 Peter 4:17-18

So you can’t answer it and I can’t have assurance. Got it.

The standard of the Lord is perfection. We ain’t meeting it.

For the record, I absolutely believe believers will demonstrate good works and one who doesn’t isn’t saved.

If someone has true faith in Christ, they will be transformed by the Holy Spirit to have a new nature, which will desire to pursue good works. Faith in Christ comes first, and works follow. If someone claims to have faith, but there is no evidence of this in their life, this is an indication that their faith is not genuine. I want to make it clear I am not arguing for easy-believism, in which someone can completely ignore God in their life but claim to have faith, and be saved. Such a person is a fraud and does not have true faith. So yes, in that sense those who lived a life of unrepentant wickedness will indeed be damned at the final judgment. But the thing that ultimately saved those who are saved is the blood of Christ, not their works. As I said, salvation by faith in Christ comes first, and good works come afterwards as evidence of someone’s true faith. Hebrews 10:26-31 appears to indicate that if someone knows the truth of Christ but rejects it to live in sin anyway, such a person will not be saved. Knowing in your mind who Christ is is very different than coming to true saving faith in Him.
The interpretation of the passage in 1 Corinthians 3 sounds extremely dubious. “Saved as if through fire” actually meaning damnation really does not make sense in the context. You distinguish it from someone being annihilated completely instead of sent to hell, do you believe annihilation happens to anyone?
And the various verses you cited emphasizing the importance of holy living and obedience to God do not contradict the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. While obedience to God is expected of all believers and is a sign that someone’s faith is genuine, ultimately the thing that saved such people from hell is the blood of Christ.

And Friday, as Pethead asked, what exactly is the role of Christ in your view? If He just came to give us a new law alternative to the Mosaic law, what exactly did His death and resurrection accomplish? Was its only purpose to end the practice of animal sacrifice? And you claim you aren’t arguing that we earn our way to heaven, but it certainly sounds like it. If the determining factor in whether someone is saved is how many good works they did, how is that not earned salvation?

Pethead wrote:So you can’t answer it and I can’t have assurance. Got it.

The standard of the Lord is perfection. We ain’t meeting it.

Paul literally says the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit ans not according to the flesh (Romans 8:4). Not sure where you think the Bible contradicts itself and says we can’t fulfill God’s righteous requirements. 

If you walk in darkness but claim to have assurance of knoeing Christ, John says you lie and tge truth is not in you. Only if you walk in the light as He is in the light, then you have fellowship and the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin (1 John 1:6-7). That’s the only assurance the Bible gives. “By this the children of God and the child of the devil are manifest, anyone who does not do righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” - 1 John 3:10

Pethead wrote:If someone could tell me how many good works I need and exactly how perfect they need to be and how often I need to do them and how exactly Christ remains Savior in this scheme, that would be great.

Every post on CMR counts towards salvation.

seth wrote:If someone has true faith in Christ, they will be transformed by the Holy Spirit to have a new nature, which will desire to pursue good works. Faith in Christ comes first, and works follow. If someone claims to have faith, but there is no evidence of this in their life, this is an indication that their faith is not genuine. I want to make it clear I am not arguing for easy-believism, in which someone can completely ignore God in their life but claim to have faith, and be saved. Such a person is a fraud and does not have true faith. So yes, in that sense those who lived a life of unrepentant wickedness will indeed be damned at the final judgment. But the thing that ultimately saved those who are saved is the blood of Christ, not their works. As I said, salvation by faith in Christ comes first, and good works come afterwards as evidence of someone’s true faith. Hebrews 10:26-31 appears to indicate that if someone knows the truth of Christ but rejects it to live in sin anyway, such a person will not be saved. Knowing in your mind who Christ is is very different than coming to true saving faith in Him.
The interpretation of the passage in 1 Corinthians 3 sounds extremely dubious. “Saved as if through fire” actually meaning damnation really does not make sense in the context. You distinguish it from someone being annihilated completely instead of sent to hell, do you believe annihilation happens to anyone?
And the various verses you cited emphasizing the importance of holy living and  obedience to God do not contradict the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. While obedience to God is expected of all believers and is a sign that someone’s faith is genuine, ultimately the thing that saved such people from hell is the blood of Christ.

The Bible says that being born again in Christ not only changes one’s nature to desire to do good, but has the ability to do good and not sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13 promises God gives Christians the ability to overcome every temptation. Exekiel 36 prophesies that when we receive the Holy Spirit, He causes us to be careful in obeying all of God’s laws. It does not say, as you said, that we only have the desire to do good but not the power to do it, only the desire to not sin but not the power to overcome. That’s the difference. As the Bible says in John 8:34-36, Romans 6, Romans 8, 1 John 3:7-10, Jesus came to change our nature so we can die to sin and live for God, doing what is righteous and thereby being righteous as He is righteous.

Friday13th wrote:

Pethead wrote:So you can’t answer it and I can’t have assurance. Got it.

The standard of the Lord is perfection. We ain’t meeting it.

Paul literally says the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit ans not according to the flesh (Romans 8:4). Not sure where you think the Bible contradicts itself and says we can’t fulfill God’s righteous requirements. 

If you walk in darkness but claim to have assurance of knoeing Christ, John says you lie and tge truth is not in you. Only if you walk in the light as He is in the light, then you have fellowship and the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin (1 John 1:6-7). That’s the only assurance the Bible gives. “By this the children of God and the child of the devil are manifest, anyone who does not do righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” - 1 John 3:10

Still not answering my question. How perfect must my obedience be before I’m saved from damnation?