Lyrics and albums question

For me, I usually try to separate the art from the artist. Otherwise, I'd listen to almost nothing. I can listen to heterodox music (e.g. Dalecore), the same as I can read those kind of theologians. However, I would not look to those artists to be a primary source of edification. I typically draw the line at outright damnable heresy in the lyrics. I also am more bothered by those who claim to be believers and yet live or believe in a way that belies that claim. Not that anyone is perfect, but there's a different between perfection and complete hypocrisy. For example, after a certain artist's statements in an interview from a few months ago, I doubt I'll buy anything else he puts out and I've pretty much stopped listening to anything from his later career. (PM for who this is). If I knew someone who claimed to produce Christian music was actually a chronic adulterer, I'd probably stop listening to them too. 

But I in no way have a hard line. I am certainly more bothered by terrible theology/practice amongst professing Christians than amongst unbelievers. I expect unbelievers to act like unbelievers. 

As far as theology vs. practice, it can be hard, if not impossible, to judge practice from afar. So someone claims another band doesn't live Christlike, what's their proof? We need some definite evidence and it needs to evince a pattern of behavior, not a temporary lapse. On the other hand, if someone is preaching a false gospel, that is cut and dry. 

At the end of the day, I take it on a case by case basis and try to follow my conscience, which is hopefully being brought more and more in line with God's word.

^^ Thanks Pethead. I'll buy that answer--it seems balanced, reasonable and godly to me. I'll chew on it for a bit.

I don't really feel responsible for learning about the character of the artists that I listen to. That doesn't really matter to me very much because it's detached from the music, unlike the lyrics. Like Pethead said though, if I were to find out that a chronic adulterer was creating some of the "Christian music" I was listening to, that would tarnish it enough for me that I would stop listening. But I'm not gonna go out and try to proactively examine the lives of the people whose music I listen to.

I would also like to add that bad theology can be immoral as well. Violations of the first table of the law are still sin. False worship is sin. Wrong views of God are sin.

Thanks for the clarification, Crimson. I have more to chew on.

To clarify my position; I have never gone out of my way to discover the lifestyle of musicians. I've just been disappointed at times upon listening to interviews or watching concerts, etc.

I'm probably not as picky about theology as you, Crimson. You're quite reformed, right?

First table of the law? Can you give the short explanation? I thought I new theology well (Bachelor of Biblical Studies and a pastor for a few years) but I haven't the foggiest! 🤪

I'm pretty similar to Pethead here, though admittedly I think I have a much more difficult time separating the artist from their art.  Seven, to your question regarding theology, it's a bit of a sliding scale for me.  I'd love it if a band pushes deep into rich theology - so long as it's correct as far as I'm able to discern.  But I'm also quite content with bands sticking to the basics of the faith - in which case, like CW, I don't feel the need to try to dig deep into their beliefs and I'm always quick to give them the benefit of the doubt.  For example, I do not agree with many of the tenants of Catholicism, but I do listen to a few bands with Catholic members in good conscience, like Ritual Servant who stick to biblical themes and certainly seem to "get it" when it comes to the Gospel.

For right or wrong, I hold bands that espouse stronger theology to a higher godliness. If they are demonstrating a higher level of theological and biblical understanding, I would want to see a commensurate commitment to biblical character--"Watch your life and doctrine closely". Does this make sense?

And please remember I'm not trying to make strong assertions or step on toes. I am wanting to bettter understand this issue. I grew up not being allowed to listen to ANY secular music--other than classical.

Sevenoneself wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Crimson. I have more to chew on.

To clarify my position; I have never gone out of my way to discover the lifestyle of musicians. I've just been disappointed at times upon listening to interviews or watching concerts, etc.

I'm probably not as picky about theology as you, Crimson. You're quite reformed, right?

First table of the law? Can you give the short explanation? I thought I new theology well (Bachelor of Biblical Studies and a pastor for a few years) but I haven't the foggiest! 🤪

Yeah I'm often disappointed by what I hear in interviews and stuff too.

Yep, I'm a Presbyterian.

The "first table of the law" refers to commandments 1-4, and the "second table of the law" refers to 5-10. Those might not be common sayings but I've heard it in my circles a lot. (I've also heard that both of Moses' tablets had all 10 written on them, so maybe it's kind of a misnomer anyway). What I was getting at is that violations of 5-10 are typically what people think of as immorality. But creating images of God, offering him false (unbiblical) worship, using his name in vain, breaking the Sabbath (which IS still a thing), etc. is also immoral.

^^ Thanks Crimson.

Pethead wrote:Just for curiosity’s sake, what do you all do when it comes to bands that have super offensive lyrics on some albums, but not on others? Do you avoid the band altogether, only avoid those albums/songs, or just listen anyway?

For example, much of modern Exodus is lyrically terrible. But some of the classic Zetro stuff isn’t any more objectionable than any classic thrash. So how do you handle their discography?

Blasphemy is really the only line that I draw when it comes to lyrics. I've thought a lot about art and it's role, how a Christian relates to art, etc. I don't think listening to music with some particular lyrics is a sin. I just try to avoid blasphemous stuff as a matter of respect and propriety.

If a band has lyrics I don't like, sometimes I'll avoid the band altogether - usually if it's a newer band and my interest doesn't surpass their cringe. I give more leeway to the classic bands, but there are some I still feel that I have to avoid because every album in their catalogue is riven with blasphemy (sadly, looking at you Deicide).

Typically, since I'm a physical media buyer, I've avoided buying any albums with blasphemous type songs, but I wonder where others fall on this? I was particularly thinking about this recently in regards to some Dan Swano stuff like Edge of Sanity and Bloodbath where there is a song here or there. If there's only one song on an album that has objectionable (anti-Christian or whatever) lyrics, do you feel wrong to own the CD? Or do you feel fine about it and just skip the song?

Then you have the issues of bands where certain albums may be acceptable. but not others. For example, I have no real problem with the first three Dream Evil albums (aside from some lyrics on The Book of Heavy Metal), but then they got into more darker, Satanic material (and the music also suffered from the little I've heard from those), and I abandoned them (good thing there's about 5 million better power metal bands in both the Christian and Secular realms).

I feel like Dream Evil is more trying to show how tough guy they are with their evil lyrics, kind of like Mystic Prophecy. Since I'm mostly listening online I just filter out the songs I don't want but I wouldn't buy the physical copy if it was more than a song or two.

I’ll buy an album if it has one or two songs that I’ll skip. But not more than that.

Good to know. I've been strangely superstitious about buying a CD copy of an album with an anti-Christian or blasphemous song or two on it even if I have no intention of listening to those particular songs or ripping them to the computer. But at the same time, as a collector, it pains me to have to buy individual songs digitally and not own the physical media. I hate buying mp3s and I feel like if I don't own a form of physical media that I have no connection with it.

I've gotten to old to worry about if I own it.

Well, I'm clinically OCD so I don't see that happening for me.

It’s also interesting to note the changes in lyrics over the careers of some bands. For example, both Slayer (SNM–RiB) and Exodus (BbB) started out with B-grade horror lyrics, before moving onto better topics (SoH–DiM; PotF–FoH). But then, sadly, they regressed and started writing even worse lyrics than they did early in their careers (GHUA–Repentless; TotD–PNG), although both have slight exceptions later on (WPB; BiBo).

With respect to the original topic, Frame has influenced (framed?) my thinking on this:

https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/theology-at-the-movies/

What a hack.

Interesting article. I wasn't sure about some of the earlier part, but he made some good points in section 1. I didn't finish the rest.

In reference to my earlier posts, here are some test cases that I would be interested to know if y'all own or would own a copy of (if you like the music of course):

Carcass -Heartwork
King Diamond - Them
At the Gates - The Red in the Sky is Ours or Slaughter of the Soul
Children of Bodom - Follow the Reaper
Amorphis - The Karelian Isthmus
Six Feet Under - Graveyard Classics (Venom cover)
Monstrosity - Imperial Doom
Slayer - Reign in Blood or Seasons in the Abyss
Megadeth - Peace Sells
Manowar - Hail to England
Amon Amarth - several albums have a song or two

Hypocrisy is a band that followed a shifting trajectory like Pethead mentioned. After starting with satanic type lyrics they started writing about aliens and social stuff. I own some of the later period albums.

Sometimes a change in vocalist or lyric-writer can make a big difference. I'm currently looking into later Blood Red Throne and it seems they took on some anti-religion lyrics after the original vocalist left.

Some bands also change their beliefs which presents interesting questions about how to engage with lyrical content they no longer believe in. Take Pentagram for example. Victor Griffin, Bobby Liebling, and Joe Hasselvander are all Christians now.

I'll think of some others.

I own both Slayer albums, but I don’t really listen to RiB because too much of it makes me uncomfortable. I have less issues with Seasons.

I own Peace Sells, but I skip The Conjuring.

I like the music on Heartwork, but Embodiment is such a direct attack on the Lord (as pathetic as that idea is), that I don’t think I’d buy it.

I’ve never been able to be comfortable listening to King Diamond because of him personally, even though I know his solo work is more horror stories than anything else.

I've only ever owned RiP, Heartwork and a couple of AA albums mostly because I don't really like the others.

I avoid bands that employ Crowley's magik system to create their music.  Specifically Tool, Hall & Oates, and Zeppelin (and possibly The Doors or Bowie, but that's only hinted at on their albums).  Also, The Beatles had Crowley on Sgt. Peppers cover art. Rappers have also propagated Crowley recently.  But the first three mentioned have admitted to being heavily being influenced by Crowley and employed his dark arts to make music.

I really struggle with this. When I first came to faith, I got rid of it all. I couldn't even listen to Christian rock for a while, I was so whacked out from drugs I just couldn't handle any abrasive music. Over the years I have gone back and forth with a lot of it. I know Christians who would not dare listen to Mercyful Fate or Slayer, but have little trouble listening to bands that sing a song fornicating, pertying and overall hedonism. I believe that we are to guard our hearts, and I do believe that we are affected by what we let in and then meditate on...