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"The Universe is not locally real"

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"The Universe is not locally real" Empty "The Universe is not locally real"

Post by ThomasEversole Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:42 am

Apparently some Nobel Peace Prize winners have proved this, but despite reading thousands of words on the topic, it still doesn't make a lick of sense to me.  I've read examples with apples and other food, boxes and other objects, schrodinger's cat and other past experiments, and every single example comes with an at-least 800 word essay.  

I've run into other examples that do little more than just maul the words 'local' and 'real' into nonsense, and what they say makes the same amount of sense, as if the words were replaced with 'canoe' and 'pancake mix'.  When anyone replies to say any examples still don't explain what this is, the responses are effectively, 'heh, quantum physics is complicated'.

Call me old school, but I can't help but think of this Einstein quote.  "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

Apparently NO ONE I've found online, truly understands this either.  This whole thing to me, just wreaks of academia gobbledygook for societal clout. 

Anyone else have an idea or two cents about this?
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Post by scottmitchell74 Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:24 pm

It's all nonsense.
All of these modern increasingly bizarre theories are just attempts to not have to answer to God. It's hubris.

I believe with physicists and other scientists, contrary to what they'd say especially, there's a big collective case of Dunning-Kruger going on.
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Post by Grindboy Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:58 pm

I'm definitely going to be a couple steps beneath whatever physicist or quantam mechanics person on things like this, and haven't at all really looked into infinite universes (although it seems. . . speculative?) or the cat (or not) in the box thing or whatever that's supposed to mean.

But, on a simpler level, I have had some thoughts and read some things somewhat recently about the nature of the reality that we all experience which has been kind of fascinating. Sound, for example, does not techinically exist, only our perception of our mind's decoding of the vibrations that our ears recognize. In other words, in a technical sense if a tree falls in the forest, although there are of course waves/vibrations sent through the forest, if somebody is not there to hear it, there in fact is no sound, exactly. Not particularly practical, but very interesting to me. Pain is similar, in that our experience of it is absolutely "real" to us, but it truly is all in our head -- if I hit my finger with a hammer, my finger does not really hurt, my nerves just send a signal to my brain which I experience as pain "in my finger," but my finger really does not hurt, exactly. Just like the "phantom pain" of an amputee is very much experienced as real despite it literally not being there. How is this possible? Because pain is actually in the mind. Interesting, to me at least. I think color has some similar dynamics going on in terms of our perception versus "real, objective, reality existing outside of our perception." 

So I don't know about reality, or how it can be disproven in  world that isn't real, and I know that a lot of things can be just based around definitions. But I think all of these things are kind of interesting, if not particularly practical. If I hit my finger with a hammer, it sure feels like my finger hurts, and my mind will tell me that I'm hearing myself say "oh goodness, darn, heck."

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Post by ThomasEversole Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:27 pm

Grindboy wrote:Sound, for example, does not techinically exist, only our perception of our mind's decoding of the vibrations that our ears recognize.

I'd say this is similar, though the examples I tried to muster through were like: 5 apples in a box, they're not real (or there) until you look at them.  Or they're black or dark gray or something else, but if you look at them, then they're red/green apples.  Or, you throw an apple at a box that has 5 apples in it, there are actually 6 apples accounted for in the box, the very instant the apple leaves your hand.  (again, I couldn't make sense of the ever changing examples different people were using, and apples got a lot of attention)

These types of things I enjoyed a lot more when they were 'fun quirky facts', where its kind of obvious there's a slight of hand and a play on words and use of 'technically'. 

Now its like die-hard redefinism.

I am aware the argument that a tree that falls in the woods, doesn't make a sound, because its not sound until the vibrations from the tree falling, are interpreted by the brain/ears as sound.  ...but that starts to fall apart when pressing on the words 'sound, waves, vibrations' being technically synonyms or antonyms of each other, in basic conversation, and it really makes some people come across as obsessive compulsive in their replies.  ("We're using the word vibrations now.  Sound is something else.")

Its also like the whole 'you're made up of 90% water' has been replaced with '99% of everything you know, is empty space'.  You know, since its been proven that atoms (which make up everything) are all 99% empty space.  So then knocking on a door, grabbing a handful of dirt, sitting in a chair and saying 'doesn't seem like empty space to me', is now technically "unscientific" or a "false claim" or "misinformation" or other similar term.
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Post by Grindboy Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:45 pm

Yeah, I'm not able to have anything to say about "nature of reality" discussions on those levels, I'm just not in that world. But to me, the types of things I referenced above are definitly in what you called "fun quirky facts" that rely heavily on "technically." Hence my last sentence about it still hurts when I hit my finger, etc.

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Post by Theonymic Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:18 pm

I don't know that I can exactly explain what the scientists are getting at, though things like the double-slit experiment have shown that, when "left alone," matter and energy are more like fields of potential than specific and discrete objects. It is only when observers such as ourselves either ask a question (location, velocity, size, energy, magnetic field, etc.) or impose order (particles must pass through this slit) that the potential coalesces into an object.

On the metaphysical level, this is something we see occurring in Genesis 1 - first there is the deep water (historically connected with chaos, lack of form/meaning), then God calls forth the dry land, the animals. A mirror image occurs from the heavens - the lights, the angels are called forth from there. Then man is called forth from both.


Last edited by Theonymic on Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by deathisgain Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:53 pm

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Post by Sevenoneself Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:03 am


It's an 8-min watch, and the pay-off is short right at the end, but it's worth it!

This conversation also reminds me of Hawkin's statement (that Jon Lennox had the same comments on as you do here), "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist."

It makes no sense at all. And if Jon Lennox can't understand it, we're probably justified in thinking it makes no sense.
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Post by TZ75 Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:29 am

I wonder if these are the same “thinkers” that say we are living in an imaginary world of a sleeping giant from a parallel universe. 

The poor creature must be in a coma and can live thousands of years.
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Post by BaleMaster Sat Oct 15, 2022 1:26 pm

Sevenoneself wrote:
It's an 8-min watch, and the pay-off is short right at the end, but it's worth it!

This conversation also reminds me of Hawkin's statement (that Jon Lennox had the same comments on as you do here), "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist."

It makes no sense at all. And if Jon Lennox can't understand it, we're probably justified in thinking it makes no sense.
That is one convoluted exercise in circular reasoning from Stephen Hawking.
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Post by Dustofyears Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:38 pm

It's very convenient we just happen to live in the sweet spot of our Solar system. A little to the left and we fry. A little to the right, and we freeze. It's very convenient that the sun is in the perfect place in the sky and the moon too.

It's very convenient, that while the other planets (that we know of, to be fair) have little to no resources or atmosphere for human survival within our Solar system, except, our Earth.

I don't know how we got here or what the truth is, but there's just too much convenience for me to believe all this convenience happens to come from nothing or some kind of, in the words of  Bob Ross, happy accident.

It seems to me there is some kind of face(s) behind the curtain.

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Post by scottmitchell74 Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:58 pm

It's amazing the lengths and knots these otherwise very smart people will tie themselves into to deny Truth. Thinking themselves wise...

 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made."
"
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Post by Sevenoneself Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:56 pm

If you want to hear John Lennox talk about this, and also get a hilarious 10 minute introduction from Eric Metaxis, click here. This thread is specifically about the content of John's speech, but the introduction is one of the most brilliant and brazen isn't comedy routines I've ever seen!

https://youtu.be/0FmO2XKMe6g
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Post by Sevenoneself Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:07 pm

Shoot, please forgive me. I gave the wrong link as far as the content of John Lennox's talk. In this one he talks about the age of the Earth. But I'm gonna leave the link up because the 1st 10 minutes of comedy is really worth the price of admission! It is the following link where he talks about Stephen Hawking.
https://youtu.be/6eHfhbP1K_4
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Post by Theonymic Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:43 pm

scottmitchell74 wrote:It's amazing the lengths and knots these otherwise very smart people will tie themselves into to deny Truth. Thinking themselves wise...

"
Please, help me understand how this constitutes a denial of Truth.

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Post by Grindboy Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:30 pm

I happened across a video about this the other day. I'm still no help.

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