Wow, the definition of "metal" has changed over the years

by WildWorld Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:37 am

I came across a book called "The Encyclopedia of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal" from 1983. Included in said book are such "metal" acts like the Allman Brothers Band, Hot Tuna, Huey Lewis and the News, Jefferson Starship, Rick Springfield, The Outlaws, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, and Toto. Now, you COULD define Springfield and Toto as AOR, but still, could you imagine these artists being included in a 2020 edition (or even a late 80s edition)?

by Markus1987 Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:47 pm

Wow. It really has changed. I wouldn't call those mentioned artists to be metal either.

by TZ75 Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:50 pm

I think the author was mistaken or ignorant on the subject. None of those bands are remotely heavy metal. The one exception is that TOTO did have the occasional hard rock riff (Hold The Line) etc...

by deathisgain Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:21 pm

WildWorld wrote:I came across a book called "The Encyclopedia of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal" from 1983. Included in said book are such "metal" acts like the Allman Brothers Band, Hot Tuna, Huey Lewis and the News, Jefferson Starship, Rick Springfield, The Outlaws, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, and Toto. Now, you COULD define Springfield and Toto as AOR, but still, could you imagine these artists being included in a 2020 edition (or even a late 80s edition)?

Were those under Hard Rock or Metal?

by Andreas89 Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:18 am

Toto has done heavier stuff than Hold the Line, not that that's difficult but still. For example their song Gypsy Train has a pretty heavy guitar tone.

by Black Rider Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:32 am

I was there in '83 and don't remember any of those bands being called Heavy Metal. It has changed though, bands like Zeppelin, Aerosmith and Deep Purple were called heavy metal but kids today would laugh.

by TZ75 Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:04 am

Andreas89 wrote:Toto has done heavier stuff than Hold the Line, not that that's difficult but still. For example their song Gypsy Train has a pretty heavy guitar tone.

I just used that song as an example because everyone knows it.

by Staybrite Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:39 pm

Black Rider wrote:I was there in '83 and don't remember any of those bands being called Heavy Metal. It has changed though, bands like Zeppelin, Aerosmith and Deep Purple were called heavy metal but kids today would laugh.

Agreed.
I do remember some arguing in the early 80's as to whether or not Ted Nuggent was "heavy metal", but I don't remember anyone suggesting that Tom Petty was metal.

by guitarhoops Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:51 pm

I think most of us here would agree that Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple are the bands that started Metal.

by Black Rider Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:50 pm

Jethro Tull though, now that's metal. Razz

by Staybrite Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:43 pm

Black Rider wrote:Jethro Tull though, now that's metal.

by alldatndensum Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:39 pm

Staybrite wrote:
Black Rider wrote:I was there in '83 and don't remember any of those bands being called Heavy Metal. It has changed though, bands like Zeppelin, Aerosmith and Deep Purple were called heavy metal but kids today would laugh.

Agreed.
I do remember some arguing in the early 80's as to whether or not Ted Nuggent was "heavy metal", but I don't remember anyone suggesting that Tom Petty was metal.

To determine if a band was "metal" or not, most of us would need to look at the magazines at the time to see who they were and were not covering. Hit Parader, Circus, and Kerrang! all did stories on Ted. He was as metal as Aerosmith. The young kids don't get to say what was metal then. The experts at the time got to decide as they were building the whole movement.

The kids today need to realize that they listen to sub-genres of sub-genres and not pure metal. It is no different than these pseudo-rap/pop acts calling themselves "country" if they use a little nasal twang and a fiddle. It isn't pure country music. You might as well remove any definitions and call Theocracy a Southern Gospel group despite sounding nothing like The Florida Boys, The Kingsmen, The Cathedrals, the Gaither Vocal Trio, etc.

by Temple of Blood Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:09 pm

There's the rub. Those writers/editors were never experts on music to begin with. Some of them were just kids themselves.

They called the artists whatever they felt like in order to sell the artists and magazines in a symbiotic relationship.

It's not like they carefully dissected the parts and made an objective judgment.

Besides, "the experts said it" is not a logical argument anyway. That's a logical fallacy called "Argument by Authority". Judgements should be based on evidence and reasoning.

by WildWorld Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:21 pm

If you're interested, the book is available to look at on archive.org (you do need to sign up to "borrow" it).
(mods: delete if this violates any rules)

by alldatndensum Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:02 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:There's the rub. Those writers/editors were never experts on music to begin with. Some of them were just kids themselves.

They called the artists whatever they felt like in order to sell the artists and magazines in a symbiotic relationship.

It's not like they carefully dissected the parts and made an objective judgment.

Besides, "the experts said it" is not a logical argument anyway. That's a logical fallacy called "Argument by Authority". Judgements should be based on evidence and reasoning.

So then we can dismiss history from anyone who actually lived through an event and should accept a logical presentation from someone who pieced things together through their own bias and cherry-picked use of previous accounts? With that sort of reasoning, it is no wonder that people think that the Holocaust never happened.

Sure, some of those early writers were kids themselves as were the artists. But, they were there experiencing it first hand. I'll take my history from someone who was there at the time. The newer generations don't get to make the call about what their dad and granddaddy rocked out to. The people that built the movement get that call, and all the newer so-called experts lose relevance as they refused to hear what was really going on and justified it through the music of their own time. That isn't reasoning and evidence. It is bias pure and simple.

But, I highly doubt this is going to go anywhere productive so I will bow out now.

by Temple of Blood Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:50 pm

History is not the same discipline as categorization.

by alldatndensum Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:55 pm

Categorization for the sake of categorization is nothing more than revisionist history.

by Temple of Blood Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:58 pm

alldatndensum wrote:Categorization for the sake of categorization is nothing more than revisionist history.

That statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Hope you'll pass along this insight to taxonomists everywhere.

by Andreas89 Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:08 am

TZ75 wrote:
Andreas89 wrote:Toto has done heavier stuff than Hold the Line, not that that's difficult but still. For example their song Gypsy Train has a pretty heavy guitar tone.

I just used that song as an example because everyone knows it.

And I was flexing my Toto muscles Cool

by alldatndensum Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:08 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
alldatndensum wrote:Categorization for the sake of categorization is nothing more than revisionist history.

That statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Hope you'll pass along this insight to taxonomists everywhere.

You just want to refit every band into a neat little package so you can label them whatever you want despite the known history of the movement has already labeled them as "metal" or something else. You can categorize them however you want but you are trying to rewrite what is to fit what you think it is. Thus, revisionist history.

by oldschooldoom Fri May 01, 2020 12:56 am

guitarhoops wrote:I think most of us here would agree that Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple are the bands that started Metal.

I'm in agreement with these UK bands being the early formation of the true Heavy Metal sound (now called classic metal). To this day, both Black Sabbath and Led Zep resent the title Heavy Metal to describe their sound.

by deathisgain Fri May 01, 2020 7:30 pm

deathisgain wrote:
WildWorld wrote:I came across a book called "The Encyclopedia of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal" from 1983. Included in said book are such "metal" acts like the Allman Brothers Band, Hot Tuna, Huey Lewis and the News, Jefferson Starship, Rick Springfield, The Outlaws, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, and Toto. Now, you COULD define Springfield and Toto as AOR, but still, could you imagine these artists being included in a 2020 edition (or even a late 80s edition)?

Were those under Hard Rock or Metal?

The thing I asked earlier is, are those bands called "heavy metal" in the book. The books title has "Hard rock" in it, which I those bands would fall under.

by WildWorld Fri May 01, 2020 7:56 pm

I think these lyrics from Tesla might end this argument:

Heavy metal, hard-core, punk, pop, or thrash.
You can call it anything it don't matter to me.
Call it what you want.
It's all music to me.

by Guest Fri May 01, 2020 11:09 pm

guitarhoops wrote:I think most of us here would agree that Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple are the bands that started Metal.

Personally, Steppenwolf was the first band I considered "Heavy Metal", even though today I wouldn't call them that.

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