Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

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Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by hELlo_die on Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:29 am

Hello everyone




I introduce you myself. I am a final-year student in Information and Communication so I have to do a master thesis. I have decided to study “The motivation of creators and funders in a crowdfunding approach. The case of donation in Christian rock”. To have an answer I have decided to realize a qualitative study which means making an “interview” for both creators and funders. So I am looking for people who gave money to a Christian rock band during a crowdfunding campaign to ask them a few questions.




May it be possible with some of you? You can contact me via private message.



Thanks a lot! Smile

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Kerrick on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Welcome!  That sounds like an interesting topic!  There are quite a few folks here who have either funded such projects (including myself) and/or have had their own crowdfunding projects.  Feel free to send me a PM with your questions and I'll try to get to them soon.  You might also consider just posting them in this thread and allowing people to answer them here if privacy/secrecy isn't an issue.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Blake on Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:54 pm

I have both contributed to and managed crowdfunding campaigns. I can answer some questions
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by hELlo_die on Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:52 pm

Thanks for your replies ! I will waiting before posting my questions in this topic because I have to analyze the first answers that I will have and maybe change my questions (you are the first one who answer)

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Alan TWWB on Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:29 pm

Great topic.  We are considering partial crowdfunding for the next The World Will Burn album.  We are 60% finished with it, so I need all the input I can get, and soon.  I look forward to what everyone thinks about this issue.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:18 pm

I think crowd funding is completely unnecessary, but I've released 16 albums since 1999 with 0% crowd funding. Some of those labels financed the release, but the rest I either paid out of pocket or bought what I needed to DIY the CD.

I think bands/projects that ask for thousands of dollars to "finance a release" is just a cash grab.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by deathisgain on Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:02 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:I think crowd funding is completely unnecessary, but I've released 16 albums since 1999 with 0% crowd funding. Some of those labels financed the release, but the rest I either paid out of pocket or bought what I needed to DIY the CD.

I think bands/projects that ask for thousands of dollars to "finance a release" is just a cash grab.

I think it depends on the music and the musician. Some music lends it style to a DIY ethic. Others need a more polished finish. Even the best of musicians may be sucky engineers and know nothing about how to record. So they need someone else to do it for them. That being said, I do believe that some of the old school artist tend to think old school and think they need a big amount of money. Even with that, I don't think they are in it for a cash grab, I think they just don't know how to budget properly.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Thiago-Brazil on Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:45 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:I think crowd funding is completely unnecessary, but I've released 16 albums since 1999 with 0% crowd funding. Some of those labels financed the release, but the rest I either paid out of pocket or bought what I needed to DIY the CD.

I think bands/projects that ask for thousands of dollars to "finance a release" is just a cash grab.
Cool if you didn't need crowndfunding, however I don't see a problem in bands that run crowdfunding projects. Even if someone uses it as a cash grab as you stated, it is okay, as they just intend to get paid for the work done (or to be done). We all do it. Work and wish to get paid properly.

I see two good advantages of it:

1) Get a minimum value that you will assure not to have a loss in the process;
2) Fans can paid whatever they think it is fair for the music they love and even get a reward.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by hELlo_die on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:59 am

Thiago-Brazi wrote:

I see two good advantages of it:

1) Get a minimum value that you will assure not to have a loss in the process;
2) Fans can paid whatever they think it is fair for the music they love and even get a reward.

Personally, I agree with this.
But I don't have enough knowledge about the process so I can't say if crowdfunding is necessary or not.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Blake on Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:47 am

ThomasEversole wrote:I think crowd funding is completely unnecessary, but I've released 16 albums since 1999 with 0% crowd funding. Some of those labels financed the release, but the rest I either paid out of pocket or bought what I needed to DIY the CD.

I think bands/projects that ask for thousands of dollars to "finance a release" is just a cash grab.

Well I suppose with some bands it may be, but I guess that's the human factor. But sometimes people get this vision of exactly what they want their release to be so they want to raise money to pay an artist, etc, and not everyone has access to a friend who can do album art and logos.

I agree though that with my Amelioration release, I did that completely myself with no help from any professional service. Well I take that back, I DID pay ModBlackMoon to make me a logo, but I think that was worth it as he did a great job.

I have learned a lot about Indiegogo during this campaign. Anyone launching an Indiegogo I recommend becoming familiar with the "gogo factor" algorithm, as its crucial to succeeding. I am working on it myself with my campaign. But you simply cannot launch it and forget it. A great example model is the "Bring Back MST3K" Kickstarter. It broke records and it was due to the way they engaged their backers constantly through constant updates. I only hope I can manage mine as well as Joel Hodgson did
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by alldatndensum on Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:21 am

ThomasEversole wrote:I think crowd funding is completely unnecessary, but I've released 16 albums since 1999 with 0% crowd funding. Some of those labels financed the release, but the rest I either paid out of pocket or bought what I needed to DIY the CD.

I think bands/projects that ask for thousands of dollars to "finance a release" is just a cash grab.



I won't say anything about the cash grab part.  I do know with my new blues album that it is possible to get a DIY project to sound like a professionally done record and all out of pocket.  I recorded the album on a Korg tabletop recorder.  I built and sold 3 cigar box guitars and used the cash to pay to have the album mixed/edited/mastered to make it sound huge.  I've since sold enough CDs to cover the printing of the original shipment and have plenty more to go.  It IS possible to do it on a shoestring if you want to.  I spent around $750 total including CD Baby Pro fees.  That comes out to a professionally done album at an average cost of $62.50 per song for the 12 tracks.  Not bad!

Now, on the flip side, if they have a reward tier that I like, I will support a band that I really appreciate their music.  I am helping fund the new Disciple, Rose, and Sean Michael.  I really only want the CD and downloads early, so I always go for that cheaper tier.

I'd answer any questions from a funder point of view.  Send me the questions in a private message.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Airola on Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:05 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:I think crowd funding is completely unnecessary, but I've released 16 albums since 1999 with 0% crowd funding. Some of those labels financed the release, but the rest I either paid out of pocket or bought what I needed to DIY the CD.

I think bands/projects that ask for thousands of dollars to "finance a release" is just a cash grab.

Have you done something else than ambient or raw underground black metal? Very Happy

I mean, it's easy for me to say that I haven't needed much funds to release ten albums when four of them are nonsense avantgarde band albums (with two of them being just "press record" and do whatever you can think of for 70-80 minutes) and six are electronic solo projects where I've been alone doing everything and only used my computer. I released the last album on vinyl and paid somewhere between 1100-1300 euros from my own pocket to get 100 pieces of 12'' vinyl records. Without that the cost would've been 0 euros.

But for people who are trying to make a living with their music and when there are more members in the band and when the music is more involved and where you need a good production value, even if it's easier today to record at home, you will need money to do that.

Crowdfunding is a good thing at least as something to help to kickstart the project. With crowdfunding you are able to know if there are enough interested people to make it financially possible. With my vinyl project I had to ask first if there were any people willing to buy an LP if I did one. Without any potential buyers, the amount I spent would've made me broke.  I would've lost all the money I had been able to save. But when there were 20-30 people willing to support before I did anything, I thought I can now take the risk without the potential to lose all that money. At least I could get part of it back which was enough for me to make my dream of having my own album as an analog vinyl record which can in theory be played even without electricity. Of the 100 records I have about half left and I've got maybe about half of the money back and I'm totally satisfied with that. With crowdfunding this "let's see if there is enough market for this release" thing can be done better with bigger projects.

I think it doesn't matter how much money people ask in their campaign. If it's a lot of money and the threshold isn't crossed, then you know it was too much. If it's a lot of money and the threshold is crossed, then what's the matter? Obviously there were enough interested people to buy the album in advance.

I also don't like the attitude many have that with crowdfunding all the money needs to go exactly and only for the actual product. In my opinion those who make crowdfunding campaigns can use part of the money to cover some of the living costs during making the product. They should be clear and honest about that though.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:46 pm

Andreas, 4 of my albums were electronic music. I'm not saying every donation setup is a cash grab, I'm just saying blanket asking for THOUSANDS of dollars borders on being unethical in my opinion.

Generally speaking, someone's inability or failure to finance their album does not constitute responsibility or necessity for the general public to pay for it. Crowd funding (or donations, since that's what it is) should be for someone in NEED. Recording an album is a WANT.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:22 pm

I donate ok? If someone needs help with food, shelter, medicine, etc. and I can help out, I will.

I'm not going to pay for someone else's guitar, them to stand in a studio or so they can press X numbers of copies. You don't need that and I don't need your $5 collectors item because I gave you $20.

If someone's living is music, then music is their job. Do we just give money to people at their jobs because they WANT something? My manager wants a second copy machine so I'll ask strangers online for $1300 so we can get it.

I'm sorry but if that's OK in your book, you're greedy...
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:39 pm

Sorry to triple post (the next reply will be the c-c-c-combobreaker)

Let me tell you a good example of a metal related crowdfundme that I find totally acceptable.  Blake's Reanimated Radio hearse.

See, that radio or hearse (which I would consider a ministry item) isn't a source of income for those guys.  Donating to that is totally cool.

Giving money so someone can make their own money (guitar, studio time, CDs) is different.  Not cool in my book.

That doesn't mean donating to bands for stuff is wrong, that just means you're a sucker and/or have money to burn.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by alldatndensum on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:42 am

That doesn't mean donating to bands for stuff is wrong, that just means you're a sucker and/or have money to burn.

I wouldn't go that far.  Many folks that do this don't get all caught up in the act of pledging more to get a t-shirt, sticker, and other overpriced items.  Many just do the tier where they get the CD and perhaps the downloads early.  It is nothing more than a pre-order that way.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:49 pm

Well, a $100 pledge is too much for "nothing more than a pre-order".
If its a $5 pledge and the goal is $3000 and they're still 90% away from their goal, I would be extremely impressed at the proof that that $5 was used for what it was intended for.  

My doubt is that ANY goal would even be met in the first place, or that upon getting a free $5 because they asked for it, wouldn't end up in a gas tank or toward an in-app-purchase instead as they'd just truly bank the bigger contributions.

Speaking of not meeting goal, I would fall over if any project/band was generous enough to give the money back to their patrons.  What no refund? I mean, how is that not "Thanks for the free money everyone!"?
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by alldatndensum on Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:09 pm

I didn't say anything about a $100 pledge being "nothing more than a preorder".  I usually go with the $15 level that gets you the CD and downloads a week prior to the official release.  When you do that, it is nothing more than a preorder.  Somehow, what I said got blown way out of proportion.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:17 am

It got blown out of proportion because there's not a $15 donation cap. Just because you turn it into a makeshift pre-order, doesn't nullify the points I made regarding bands suckering people for easy cash.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by alldatndensum on Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:15 am

You also assume that you know the heart of each artist and fan in your presumptions.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by exo on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:20 am

ThomasEversole wrote:Well, a $100 pledge is too much for "nothing more than a pre-order".
If its a $5 pledge and the goal is $3000 and they're still 90% away from their goal, I would be extremely impressed at the proof that that $5 was used for what it was intended for.  

My doubt is that ANY goal would even be met in the first place, or that upon getting a free $5 because they asked for it, wouldn't end up in a gas tank or toward an in-app-purchase instead as they'd just truly bank the bigger contributions.

Speaking of not meeting goal, I would fall over if any project/band was generous enough to give the money back to their patrons.  What no refund? I mean, how is that not "Thanks for the free money everyone!"?


This entire thing is dependent upon which crowdfunding method is used, though.  There are several out there that if he goal is not met, nobody is actually charged (like Kickstarter), or have an option to be set up that way (gofundme).  That's why you don't see bands offering refunds if goals aren't met:  there's literally nothing for them to refund, because they don't see a dime unless the goal is actually met.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Blake on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:04 am

exo wrote:
ThomasEversole wrote:Well, a $100 pledge is too much for "nothing more than a pre-order".
If its a $5 pledge and the goal is $3000 and they're still 90% away from their goal, I would be extremely impressed at the proof that that $5 was used for what it was intended for.  

My doubt is that ANY goal would even be met in the first place, or that upon getting a free $5 because they asked for it, wouldn't end up in a gas tank or toward an in-app-purchase instead as they'd just truly bank the bigger contributions.

Speaking of not meeting goal, I would fall over if any project/band was generous enough to give the money back to their patrons.  What no refund? I mean, how is that not "Thanks for the free money everyone!"?


This entire thing is dependent upon which crowdfunding method is used, though.  There are several out there that if he goal is not met, nobody is actually charged (like Kickstarter), or have an option to be set up that way (gofundme).  That's why you don't see bands offering refunds if goals aren't met:  there's literally nothing for them to refund, because they don't see a dime unless the goal is actually met.

That's absolutely right, and with my current Indiegogo I had options as well. I could choose to make it "all or nothing" where if you don't reach your goal in the allotted time all money is automatically refunded, or not charged, or I could choose "flexible", meaning that I keep funds if the goal isn't met. I did choose flexible myself because in all reality I don't expect to be fully funded, I am instead hoping to raise a portion of the funds needed and safely put them in a designated paypal.

As far was what Thomas said, it is true though that there are some campaigns that may not use the money for what its raised for, but its really no different than when you tithe. You just have to trust that it is going to be used for the church and not for a nice dinner. I'm really making it a point to give out my rewards even if I don't reach my goal, because I think its just the right thing to do personally.

Thomas
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Alan TWWB on Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:40 am

This has been such an informative thread.  I really appreciate everyone's views.  Right now, The World Will Burn (Dale Thompson and me) are considering a Kickstarter or other crowdfunding campaign but not for the full project.  We get it that we are a new band, even though a lot of people know Dale through his work with BRIDE.  We aren't going to raise $25K like a lot of other bands.  We are paying for everything out of pocket, but it would be a huge help to have crowdfunding to pay for the mixing, mastering, and printing.  I hope music fans will see that this part of the project helps them the most, as we want to deliver a professional sounding and looking product.  
Another thing about crowdfunding we like is that we can offer things besides just the music.  Packages that include merchandise, personalized memorabilia, and so forth are pretty cool.  I really want to have a level where folks can get mentioned on the CD insert, which I think in a great reward.  
What do you guys think is a reasonable goal?
Do you guys prefer to fund using Kickstarter?  Indigogo?  Another one?

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by messiaen77 on Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:53 am

ThomasEversole wrote:Andreas, 4 of my albums were electronic music. I'm not saying every donation setup is a cash grab, I'm just saying blanket asking for THOUSANDS of dollars borders on being unethical in my opinion.

Generally speaking, someone's inability or failure to finance their album does not constitute responsibility or necessity for the general public to pay for it. Crowd funding (or donations, since that's what it is) should be for someone in NEED. Recording an album is a WANT.
No, it is not a necessity, it is an option.  If a band wants to give its fans the opportunity to make an investment in a new album, why shouldn't they?  There is no obligation for me as a fan of XYQ band to help them fund the album.  It isn't like a tax levied against fans where they have to give.  It is an opportunity; if someone wants to give, they can and if they don't, then they don't have to.

ThomasEversole wrote:I donate ok? If someone needs help with food, shelter, medicine, etc. and I can help out, I will.

I'm not going to pay for someone else's guitar, them to stand in a studio or so they can press X numbers of copies. You don't need that and I don't need your $5 collectors item because I gave you $20.

If someone's living is music, then music is their job. Do we just give money to people at their jobs because they WANT something? My manager wants a second copy machine so I'll ask strangers online for $1300 so we can get it.

I'm sorry but if that's OK in your book, you're greedy...
It is great that you give to people in need.  It is also great that you have decided that you don't feel the need to give to people's musical projects.  Ain't nothin' wrong with that.  Frankly, you earn your money and whether you want to cover your expenses and invest the rest in a solid, diversified portfolio or you want to blow it all on magic beans and hookers, that's none of my business.  That being said, I think you are oversimplifying the mindset of artists who turn to crowdfunding to put out albums and really making unwarranted blanket character attacks.  If said manager wants a second copy machine and puts out there "Hey, I'd like a new copy machine for my office, if you would like to give some money toward it, I'll give you a little something in return," then what's the problem?  No one is being forced to give, it is totally up to each individual to decide whether or not they would like to give.  And yes, we do give people money at their jobs because they want something.  It is called a salary.  You are a musician.  When people buy your CDs, aren't they giving you money for doing your job?  Do you sell your CDs at cost or do you profit even a little bit from it?  I'm not judging, I'm just asking questions.  If you profit from your music, even enough to buy another dipping sauce at McDonald's, then good for you.  I don't begrudge you one cent.  Nor would I say you are greedy for asking people to buy your music instead of just giving it away.

I think of crowdsourcing like a low-pressure PBS fundraising drive.  You aren't paying $100 to get a $20 DVD of Riverdance or Celtic Women or whatever they are giving away.  You are paying $100 to help an organization you believe in continue to put out programming you are enjoying and as a token of appreciation, they are giving you something in return.  I dunno, maybe you think PBS is greedy.  Maybe you think museums, orchestras, opera and ballet companies, etc. are greedy because they give people the opportunity to make donations so they can bring in exhibits and produce performances that they will sell tickets for as well.  You are entitled to your opinion.  But I will tell you that I think you are dead wrong for making such a blanket accusation and character attack against people you don't even know.  That is my opinion.

ThomasEversole wrote:Sorry to triple post (the next reply will be the c-c-c-combobreaker)

Let me tell you a good example of a metal related crowdfundme that I find totally acceptable.  Blake's Reanimated Radio hearse.

See, that radio or hearse (which I would consider a ministry item) isn't a source of income for those guys.  Donating to that is totally cool.

Giving money so someone can make their own money (guitar, studio time, CDs) is different.  Not cool in my book.

That doesn't mean donating to bands for stuff is wrong, that just means you're a sucker and/or have money to burn.
So you aren't a fan of investments?  When you invest in something, whether it is crowdfunding something, buying stocks, or putting money in a savings account, you are giving someone money so they can make money.  And here we go with more insults and character attacks.  "You are wrong, you're just stupid."  You know, you really seem to have a very low opinion of people who don't think like you.


ThomasEversole wrote:Well, a $100 pledge is too much for "nothing more than a pre-order".
If its a $5 pledge and the goal is $3000 and they're still 90% away from their goal, I would be extremely impressed at the proof that that $5 was used for what it was intended for.  

My doubt is that ANY goal would even be met in the first place, or that upon getting a free $5 because they asked for it, wouldn't end up in a gas tank or toward an in-app-purchase instead as they'd just truly bank the bigger contributions.

Speaking of not meeting goal, I would fall over if any project/band was generous enough to give the money back to their patrons.  What no refund? I mean, how is that not "Thanks for the free money everyone!"?
I know people have already told you that many of these projects (including all Kickstarters) are set up so that no money changes hands if the goal is not met, but I will give you this point.  For every funded project that produces and sends out what is promised, there are those that never happen.  I'd love to see those people issue refunds, but I would fall over from shock if it ever happened.  That being said, going back to the investment idea, people should know going in that there is a chance they will never see that money again.  Back in the 1990s, my wife and I bought $100 worth of WorldCom stock when it was trading at $.10 a share.  Our thinking was either this company was going to go under and we'd be out $100, it would rebound/reorganize and we'd be holding 1000 shares of a stock that even if it only ended up going to $10/share would give us a huge return on our investment, or it would be bought out by another company and we'd end up with shares of another company.  Well, as it turns out the company collapsed and we lost the money, but we went into it knowing the risk and deciding the potential risk was worth the potential reward.  I think that is what isn't really emphasized in crowdfunding--this is a business decision.  With that being said, I am much more impressed by proposals I see that have a more or less detailed budget attached to them rather than just "We want $20,000 to make a record."
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Airola on Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:01 pm

Yeah, I agree with messiaen77 100%

Companies sometimes get donations. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's equipment, sometimes it's something else. Sometimes they get it without ever giving anything back to the donators. And it's still fine with the donator who might not even expect to have something in return.

The "sucker" and "you have money to burn" comment is pretty harsh and quite judgemental. It's as if every dime you put somewhere should be about physical survival to someone. If the money you give don't go to help someone to survive, then you have "cast pearls before swine" and if you get money without having worked really really hard for it, then it's pure greed. It's either this or that. There's no middle ground. You are either a sucker or you have money to burn if you don't use the money as economically and usefully as possible.

But the thing with art and entertainment is that their makers very often have a track record of their earlier work. People who are fans of artists and entertainers aren't their fans just because. No, the artists have gained their fans by previous hard work. Some have worked harder than others. But they have still gained fans. And the fans have gotten lots of positive things to their lives from the artist's previous works. Now, if there is a person who likes them so much that he is willing to give a donation or a pledge so that he could help them continue making their art and entertainment then it's only his business if he's going to give a small or a bigger part of his money to them. No-one is forcing him to do it.

This is just how people like to use their money nowadays. We can see that many times when there is a certain amount of money as a goal for these campaigns and the goal is already met, people are still giving money to the project even if it's already funded. Like for example, the Tourniquet campaign got almost 5000 dollars more than what their goal were. People didn't think "ok they've gotten enough money already so I don't need and I don't want to give them anything anymore." No, there were plenty of people who still wanted to be part of the campaign even if the funding of the album was already clear. And Thomas wants to call these people suckers.

And no, it's not about "having money to burn" either. People in general at least in North America and Europe use part of whatever income they get to purchase simple entertainment. Some people buy music. Some people buy decorations to their house. Some people buy jewellery. Some people go to movies. Just because it is a crowdfunding campaign doesn't mean it's really any different from any other use of money. The crowdfunding money is still money off from something else. Instead of using their monthly entertainment money to something else, they decide to use it on a crowdfunding campaign. Using it now on that means that when the album or whatever else is later released, they can use the "entertainment" money to something else in the future. The higher pledge tiers usually have things like posters and shirts and items the artists have used in the past. Sometimes it's basic merchadise the fan would probably get later anyway, sometimes it's a more unique version of the merchandise. It's basically also about pre-ordering the merchandise. Sometimes album or movie crowfunding campaigns have a price where the donator gets his name on the finished work as an executive producer or something. That might be a huge dream for a fan of the group who are doing the campaign. He might decide to "invest" on this now and be the next few months without using money to any entertainment. He might sacrifice a lot to have this part of his dream be fulfilled. Calling him a sucker or someone who just has money to burn might be insulting at that point. Telling he has just burned his money is exactly the same as if you would just go and say that the thing he wants shouldn't be important to him, or that the thing he wants is not important to anyone, because he has just "burned the money away."



It's kinda weird to read things like this from Thomas since he has been on the more liberal side on this forum. Seeing him being ultra conservative about money and this crowdfunding subject is very odd. Not that his "liberality on this forum" should be held against his opinion. But still, it's odd.

And yeah, now as Thomas said his earlier albums were electronic music, I think he might be as qualified as I am to tell how much making of an album should cost. And I am not qualified at all. I mean, I would understand if the bands would ask $10,000 to make an album which would end up being a raw black metal album recorded on a home computer or an electronic album played with a midi keyboard or made by a midi sequencer or a tracker based music software, and using the basic sound editing programs with no professional knowledge of them whatsoever (I use professional software for post production but my knowledge of them is basically using some random presets and perhaps adjusting them a little - but if you'd ask me if I know what I just did and if I could come to a sound engineer school and explain to the students what I did, I would be able to talk some legit stuff for ten or twenty minutes but would be kicked out of that place before noon Very Happy ).

Thomas makes cool music. I subscribed to his Youtube channel to listen to his occasional black metal prayers. And I think I make cool music too. But I also think our music is no way near the more established bands who are using crowdfunding campaigns. We are underground. And our music sounds underground. We have no idea what it takes to make an album that could be sold at the local mall AND that people would actually buy the albums from there.

Sometimes an established band needs to first get a band member to the studio from whichever state he has to live in. Plane tickets cost money too. Some bands need to take that in the equation as well. They can't just tell the other member to leave the band and take someone else so that they could make the album for less money. But that's not a matter for us who could very well just ask the other members to play their parts on their computer with whatever software they have and then send the tracks to the other member online. We are underground. Our music doesn't need better quality. We don't know how much money has to be used on marketing to make the album have selling power beyond the campaign.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:35 pm

Thanks for subscribing to my channel and your comments about my music!

Messiaen, I think you made a good point with the PBS thing. No, I don't think they are greedy. I think how a band goes about asking for money is more of a variable than I thought.

"Support our art - donate now! If X is met, we'll have the money to press the album now rather than later!" Seems noble enough. No real qualms because the context is supporting because of love for that art. Like your PBS example.

"We want to record a new album. We need $3000." Now the context isn't the art or music, now it's about buying supplies for a band. Asking for "stuff", while not necessarily wrong (I said it bordered on being unethical in my prior post), when asking for money this way, if you don't meet goal, then it's still free cash for the band.

I'm sure you guys might have already assumed this, I've seen a few Christian metal indigogo/gofundme/whatever accounts that really rubbed me the wrong way. I feel it would be tacky to list them here, so... sorry, I won't do that.

...but me seeing those accounts and this thread starting pretty close to the same time, it was a perfect storm for me to broadcast my butthurt about it.

Does that make more sense?
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by strangerhoncho on Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:26 am

Alan TWWB wrote:This has been such an informative thread.  I really appreciate everyone's views.  Right now, The World Will Burn (Dale Thompson and me) are considering a Kickstarter or other crowdfunding campaign but not for the full project.  We get it that we are a new band, even though a lot of people know Dale through his work with BRIDE.  We aren't going to raise $25K like a lot of other bands.  We are paying for everything out of pocket, but it would be a huge help to have crowdfunding to pay for the mixing, mastering, and printing.  I hope music fans will see that this part of the project helps them the most, as we want to deliver a professional sounding and looking product.  
Another thing about crowdfunding we like is that we can offer things besides just the music.  Packages that include merchandise, personalized memorabilia, and so forth are pretty cool.  I really want to have a level where folks can get mentioned on the CD insert, which I think in a great reward.  
What do you guys think is a reasonable goal?
Do you guys prefer to fund using Kickstarter?  Indigogo?  Another one?

Kickstarter, Indiegogo, or GoFundme doesn't matter to me as a fan -- it's the band I'm supporting, regardless of the platform.  But they each have different percentages and costs/benefits for the artist so you should look at that carefully.

A reasonable goal would be whatever your band needs to cover your actual expenses, and if you want to cover your time then whatever your time is worth to each of you.  Only you guys can answer that.  Most indie bands seem to ask between $5K and $20K.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Blake on Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:01 pm

Alan TWWB wrote:Do you guys prefer to fund using Kickstarter?  Indigogo?  Another one?

It all depends on the project. I think GoFundMe is better suited for personal stuff, like raising money to pay for a funeral, etc

Kickstarter is great for business ventures or if you have an idea for a great product/service

Indiegogo I feel is better for smaller projects or independent stuff and arts. At least that's my take on the 3.

I have used all 3 with very little success so far, with the exception of the GoFundMe for Antoine, that went exceedingly well. One thing people forget with crowdfuning is that you have to put forth effort to promote and engage your potential audience. Share the link on social media and try to get others to share it.

I'm not sure about kickstarter but indiegogo has a custom algorithm in place that determines what projects get placed on the front page. Its called the "Gogo Factor". I've learned a lot about it recently. Basically your gogo factor score is calculated based on a number of factors.

- Sharing your custom igg.me link on social media
- Posting updates
- Comments on your page
- Percent funded
- Number of unique backers (regardless of amount)
- Activity on page
- Number of pictures

Basically it boils down to a keeping a steady flow of content and activity on your campaign. Also I hear that everywhere your igg.me link is posted tracks back to indiegogo and factors into their analytics for your gogo score, so social media shares are important.

you can google gogo factor and learn more though. For this reason I am spamming my indiegogo link like a madman and posting updates every single day. Hoping to get on the front page.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by Alan TWWB on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:45 am

Why does everything have to be so complicated!?  Anyway, we were thinking that we could just offer the same packages for sale on our website...different levels of support that gets all the cool stuff available from crowdfuning sites like Kickstarter. The real problem is if anybody will actually go to the website.  Maybe with crowdfunding new fans can find your music and support it.  In our case, most of our support will be from people that already know something of The World Will Burn, and so maybe that will work.

I know I support Kickstater projects but have a hard time searching for new ones.  If I see the link posted I am good to go but just going to the site and looking for a cool project to support is tricky, IMO.

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by messiaen77 on Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:17 pm

I think what you are talking about it could work well Alan.  I'm sure there are people who just go to crowdfunding sites to find stuff to support, but I think most people click links that are shared, which would work the same way whether you were linking to a Kickstarter page or your own.  It sounds like what you are talking about is similar to what you see on Pledge Music, with different packages that can be pre-ordered.
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by ThomasEversole on Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:45 am

New episode of Family Guy had a jab at crowd funding. Stewie, Brian and Frank Sinatra Jr. go to start an Italian restaurant. When Brian asks how they'll afford it, Frank Sinatra Jr says

"Well I setup a Kickstarter... until I realized how stupid that was, so then I went to the bank for a loan like an adult"

LOL
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by hELlo_die on Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:55 am

Hey everyone !

I hope you are fine and you had great time with all people you love during Christmas !
I just let you know how my master thesis goes. I didn't work on it since October because I had an internship but I will work on it this month and in January.

I will try to find other people who have give money to Christian rock band and some band who launch crowdfunding campaign.

I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas ! with a little delay :/

Thanks again for those who had helping me !

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by alldatndensum on Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:19 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:New episode of Family Guy had a jab at crowd funding. Stewie, Brian and Frank Sinatra Jr. go to start an Italian restaurant. When Brian asks how they'll afford it, Frank Sinatra Jr says

"Well I setup a Kickstarter... until I realized how stupid that was, so then I went to the bank for a loan like an adult"

LOL

Yes, because going into debt to record a project in a musical climate that won't allow you to make enough to make the payments is so much smarter.

Rolling Eyes
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by hELlo_die on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:35 am

Hi all !

I hope you're fine !

I want to thank you again for your help ! Smile
I passed my master thesis (and my master degree), thanks to you ! Smile the mark of my thesis is 15/20.

I wish you the best.
Elodie

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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by alldatndensum on Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:17 am

Glad we all could help!
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Re: Master thesis about Christian rock and crowdfunding

Post by timekeeper on Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:07 am

hELlo_die wrote:Hi all !

I hope you're fine !

I want to thank you again for your help ! Smile
I passed my master thesis (and my master degree), thanks to you ! Smile the mark of my thesis is 15/20.

I wish you the best.
Elodie
Congrats!
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