Christian metal no longer confronts sin

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Hardcore Christian on Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:50 pm

And to add on to what was said about writing honest lyrics....................

The song in question, Pissed Off by Fit For A King, was explained by Ryan in an interview when asked about why he wrote it.

He said, " The lyrics were written while we were playing Paris four nights after the attack on the Bataclan. Seeing the way fear had torn apart a beautiful city that I had always dreamed of visiting really pissed me off. This song is a strong message about being absolutely fed up with all the violence and killing in the world and that our best way to fight this terror is to not live in fear."
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:26 am

I don't mind being offended by lyrics; I even like it sometimes. It's part of life to be offended every once in a while, I don't see why christian metal bands wouldn't allow themselves to sing things that people might be offended by.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by d@v!d on Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:14 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
d@v!d wrote:
ThomasEversole wrote:That didn't seem like "better to not say anything" was the principle observation when 3 bands (Sacred Warrior, Holy Soldier, Steve Taylor) got a congratulatory nod for broadcasting a form of hate towards sin/sinners.
Wait, from where do we get that these bands are broadcasting hate?

Hate the sin, love the sinner is a cop-out.

Let's say you enjoy riding bikes with a passion. You notice my band has several songs against riding bikes - which means if you're a musician, you know I put my blood sweat and tears into it. I have tshirts saying how wrong riding bikes is. I'll look you square in the eye while holding an anti-bike riding sign and boldly tell you that riding bikes is what's wrong with the world today.

Now, after all that, let me ask you.
Do you feel my Christian love as a filthy bike rider?
It's like I said, it needs to be done right. Not polemics for polemics sake. Westboro makes some true statements, but their emphasis and presentation make it all wrong. Calling out sin in such a way (I agree) is hate, but calling out sin in the right way is actually, love.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by New Creation on Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:10 am

Here's what I wrote years ago in my book:

You might be asking me now, "Isn't rebuke done out of hate, not love?" My answer is simply, "No." Rebuke, when based on righteous principle, is as lovely an action as is giving commendations, thanks, or serving your wife. When we rebuke or judge someone, we let them know that they are out of line with God and need to straighten up their lives. It is an act of love because we are warning them that their behavior could lead to even worse actions and punishment. If I speak harshly with someone to prevent an accident, is that hate or love? It's absolutely love because their actions are out of line. I care about their well being and don't want to see them do further damage to their self and to others. To wrap it up, hate is not the opposite of love, rather, apathy is the opposite of love. Doing nothing about dangerous behavior is more damaging than speaking up and telling the truth.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by d@v!d on Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:48 am

New Creation wrote:Here's what I wrote years ago in my book:

You might be asking me now, "Isn't rebuke done out of hate, not love?" My answer is simply, "No." Rebuke, when based on righteous principle, is as lovely an action as is giving commendations, thanks, or serving your wife. When we rebuke or judge someone, we let them know that they are out of line with God and need to straighten up their lives. It is an act of love because we are warning them that their behavior could lead to even worse actions and punishment. If I speak harshly with someone to prevent an accident, is that hate or love? It's absolutely love because their actions are out of line. I care about their well being and don't want to see them do further damage to their self and to others. To wrap it up, hate is not the opposite of love, rather, apathy is the opposite of love. Doing nothing about dangerous behavior is more damaging than speaking up and telling the truth.
So next time you get angry with someone instead of telling them you hate them, say "I apathy you!"

But in all seriousness, you've said it well. To add to it, I think the confusion comes from too many examples of the wrong motivation.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by SpaceGuy on Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:45 pm

I am curious - what bands, that are modern, can be recommended as confronting sin, or having good theology? It does seem that the old guard of bands - Deliverance, Stryper, ect had a much harder edge of delivering the Gospel message. I am not saying that everything today is bad, but its certainly weak when it comes to lyrical content, generally.

There are a few bands that seem genuine with thoughtful lyrics like Theocracy (IMO), but other than them and, arguably, Impending Doom, I can't think of many bands that don't veil Christianity in a sugar-flavored lyrical melody. Certainly, not every band and track has to be about hardcore Chrisitanity, or theological messages... But I feel that so many bands are just totally devoid of it, and Christian music has become less about Jesus the Messiah, and more about Positive Christianity (tm)

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Kerrick on Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:54 pm

SpaceGuy wrote:...I can't think of many bands that don't veil Christianity in a sugar-flavored lyrical melody. Certainly, not every band and track has to be about hardcore Chrisitanity, or theological messages... But I feel that so many bands are just totally devoid of it, and Christian music has become less about Jesus the Messiah, and more about Positive Christianity (tm)

^Yup, and at least within the extreme metal scene, the lyrics seem primarily about smashing Satan's face, dismembering demons, and other "metal" themes within Christianity.  Rolling Eyes  While that is "cool," I think those themes have largely replaced that of the Gospel - which is the most important, crucial, and central theme to Christianity.  If all a band sings about is slaying demons... one could argue it's not even a "Christian band" since there's no message of the Gospel...

As for modern bands (besides Theocracy) with stronger and more overt Christian messages, a few come to mind:

Adorned Graves
Agonal
The Autumn League
Blood Thirsty
Faithless Minutes Devoured
Golden Resurrection
Grave Declaration
Orationem
Place Of Skulls

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Follower of Jesus on Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:01 pm

Bloodgood's latest record was terrific in this regard.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by alldatndensum on Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:42 pm

The last Mission Of One album "Hostile To The Gospel" also had that in your face approach.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by bjorn agin on Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:50 pm

Disciple has always been a good example of in your face gospel centered lyrics.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Stand against the wind on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:58 am

There are bands that do and there's ones that don't. I like the variety.

When I was a kid I needed "in your face" lyrics. Now older as I am, I want deep and and intelligent lyrics. There are many bands that don't give me much. I know Jesus. If I want gospel, I read it from the Bible. I like christian lyrics that center everyday life, that point the light and the pain of life in a christian setting.

In rock scene The Choir is just awesome what comes to lyrics.

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by cliffenstein on Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:34 am

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.  If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.  They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me.  If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well.  If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.  But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'"
JOHN 15:18-25 (NIV)
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:01 pm

There's a big difference in being hated because we're living according to Christ, and being hated because we publicly broadcast in a metal song how wrong an entire group of people are.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by crucifyd on Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:47 pm

living according to Christ MAY include broadcasting how wrong an entire group of people are...

there is a time and a place for everything...

do you think Jesus never "broadcast how wrong" a group of people were?
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by alldatndensum on Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:18 pm

I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing to call out sin.  How we go about it is key.  If I come off as angry and condescending towards others, then I have lost them regardless of genre.  If I can weave that into a story that people will listen to, then I've given the audience food for thought.  Its up to the Holy Spirit at that point anyway.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:58 am

crucifyd wrote:living according to Christ MAY include broadcasting how wrong an entire group of people are...

there is a time and a place for everything...

do you think Jesus never "broadcast how wrong" a group of people were?
THIS. Spot on.

For the gazillionth time, being christian doesn't mean you're a doormat.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:23 am

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're an arsehole either.

Look, I see no real reason as to why Christian metal would cover hardcore sin topics, even if they go about it the "right" (or watered down) way.  Every word spent on saying "you're all bad, bad people" is every word that could be spent on salvation, or proclaiming joy and peace with Christ.  

There's plenty of metal lyric variety in salvation and glory.  Click on my signature and start reading if you don't believe me.  Why even drift to the topics that are just going to piss people off?  Its needless!

First impressions with the unsaved are getting forgotten here.  Do you really want the first thing an unsaved gay man hears from a Christian metal band is a song on how evil homosexuality is? (or since everyone says to go about it the right way, but doesn't say what the right way is, I'm guessing that song would be about a gay man who is miserable or something...)

Even if that was the third track they heard, that would be gawd awful.

If a band is Christian metal, it should have a Christian lyrical theme that draws the listener in, with something good.  ....not some puzzle to interpret that decodes to meaning a group of people suck.

Its just better to make a public format (metal song) to bring those to Christ with the perks of faith than the hell of sin.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:29 pm

Hmm, maybe we are getting our signals crossed. I agree with you and the topic starter namely.
I don't think that "confronting sin" should mean singing a list of things that are bad. There's simply no use in saying that something is bad (every religion can do that) when it isn't put in the light of salvation.

But just for the sake of argument: would it be bad for a christian band to be a bit provocative? I know christians who can be very provocative in a graceful way.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:14 pm

There's nothing wrong with confronting sin, but I don't think blanket-confronting it as a published metal track is the way to go about it.  

There's nothing wrong with being provocative, but all I've seen in this thread regarding that is:
- lyrics that are offensive to the sinner,
- watering the message down to candy coat it or
- an ambiguous "it needs to be done the right way" without saying how that right way is.

I have yet to see a decent example of Christian metal addressing hardcore sin in a way that's not horrifying or tacky. Seriously, there are much better topics to invest in.

The other aspect of this that bothers me is an odor of self glorification.  What is the drive to see a message in metal that condemns others?  Those of you clamoring to see lyrics point out and condemn sinning others, remind me of that kid who hates school, wanting lyrics to a song that say how dumb school is...
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by alldatndensum on Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:08 pm

Oh, let's all just write crappy worship lyrics or write poetic pieces about slaying dragons and such.  Yeah, that will bring in the lost!
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by deathisgain on Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:33 pm

alldatndensum wrote:Oh, let's all just write crappy worship lyrics or write poetic pieces about slaying dragons and such.  Yeah, that will bring in the lost!

Wait, I like lyrics about dragons! Metal 2
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Friday13th on Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:07 am

Obviously all this provocation of sin would be pointless if it didn't point to Jesus in some way and help us walk in the light. It can have a benefit for both the believer and the lost. 

I listen to music that points out MY OWN SIN all the time. I play songs about purity and fighting temptation purposefully to be convicted, not to ignore the truth and certainly not to beat myself up either. 

We need to break free of the lie that pointing out sin is necessarily condemning and do it the way Jesus did it. Surrounded by love and caring for the well-being of others. The acknowledgement of sin is necessary to salvation BTW, so I don't know how you plan to present it but it has to reach a non-believer eventually.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:15 am

alldatndensum wrote:Oh, let's all just write crappy worship lyrics or write poetic pieces about slaying dragons and such.  Yeah, that will bring in the lost!

You're attitude really sucks sometimes. I remember clearly you banning my prior user name in 2012 for being sarcastic / passive aggressive in a gay marriage thread. ...yet this post you made clearly makes you a hypocrite to that.

That really re-scars resentment, and marks yet another time you've been a whirling cypher of destruction here.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:55 am

Friday13th wrote: The acknowledgement of sin is necessary to salvation BTW, so I don't know how you plan to present it but it has to reach a non-believer eventually.

...and the acknowledgement of sin has to be delivered in song? Last time I checked, accepting Christ who paid for our sins on the cross was necessary to salvation... not a sin checklist.

Who the heck does the necessary purge of sin from their life before they accept Christ anyway? Are we really in that big of a hurry to scrub people clean before they even get saved?
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by exo on Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:36 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
alldatndensum wrote:Oh, let's all just write crappy worship lyrics or write poetic pieces about slaying dragons and such.  Yeah, that will bring in the lost!

You're attitude really sucks sometimes. I remember clearly you banning my prior user name in 2012 for being sarcastic / passive aggressive in a gay marriage thread. ...yet this post you made clearly makes you a hypocrite to that.

That really re-scars resentment, and marks yet another time you've been a whirling cypher of destruction here.


Knock it off.  This direction of conversation is done NOW, and is NOT to occur again.  Period.

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by alldatndensum on Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:53 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
Friday13th wrote: The acknowledgement of sin is necessary to salvation BTW, so I don't know how you plan to present it but it has to reach a non-believer eventually.

...and the acknowledgement of sin has to be delivered in song? Last time I checked, accepting Christ who paid for our sins on the cross was necessary to salvation... not a sin checklist.

Who the heck does the necessary purge of sin from their life before they accept Christ anyway? Are we really in that big of a hurry to scrub people clean before they even get saved?



I think the point of it would be to illustrate what sin is so that a person would understand why you needed Jesus in the first place.  Who needs salvation if they don't know they are a sinner?  How will they know if no one tells them?  For people who never step foot in a church, the people and media they consume may be the only Jesus they get.  Why shouldn't musicians write about whatever they feel is important even if it is calling people sinners?  We are ALL sinners.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:05 am

^Add to that the fact that each period of time has its own blind spots towards what's right and wrong. There's not much love involved in ignoring that just not to offend people. Being offended isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:45 pm

alldatndensum wrote:
I think the point of it would be to illustrate what sin is so that a person would understand why you needed Jesus in the first place.  Who needs salvation if they don't know they are a sinner?  How will they know if no one tells them?  For people who never step foot in a church, the people and media they consume may be the only Jesus they get.  Why shouldn't musicians write about whatever they feel is important even if it is calling people sinners?  We are ALL sinners.

Realistically, anyone who breaks the law knows they're doing wrong. Not even that actually. Wife beaters, chomos, liars, thieves have gotten the memo thousands of times before they listen to a Christian metal track saying it's wrong.

Sin to those outside the faith is a useless factoid. What's needed is conviction and a change of heart to bring weight to sin and the need for change. It's important to tear down the old building so a new one can be put back up.

Harping on hardcore sin is not the way to do this. Not even one track. You could just as well reinforce someone's old building by "attacking" their lifestyle personally. If they've got the attitude for it, you've successfully pushed them farther out of reach.

Andreas, I get what you're saying about offending someone needing to happen perhaps, but is your jam really the place to do that? It's too much a shot in the dark. What if a gay bashing Christian song sends someone into a deadly spiraling depression? Spree killings have started for less as well...

There's only so many ways to say the same thing. If a band really wants to make a difference, they'll cover more ground with God's love than griping on sin. Taking this approach - in giant letters on the front of the shirt is you're wrong, here's how you're wrong, oh by the way, the back of the shirt says believe in Jesus.

It wreaks of ego as well. Like you've got to E.dge G.od O.ut just to make a point of how wrong someone is...
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by alldatndensum on Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:11 pm

Sin to those outside the faith is a useless factoid. What's needed is conviction and a change of heart to bring weight to sin and the need for change. It's important to tear down the old building so a new one can be put back up.

Harping on hardcore sin is not the way to do this. Not even one track. You could just as well reinforce someone's old building by "attacking" their lifestyle personally. If they've got the attitude for it, you've successfully pushed them farther out of reach.

Jesus called out sinners in a hardcore way to show them that they were out of the will of God.  Of course, He is God and knew when to go for the jugular verbally and when to apply the grace.  We don't have that divine filter.

I think, at least for myself, calling out sin and harping on it are two different things.  Look at Rez/Resurrection Band.  They did a lot of songs about societal ills and lifestyles that were sinful.  They painted those musical palates in a way that you could tell were wrong without blasting people who may be in those lifestyles.  I think that is the right way to do it IF you so feel led to do so.  Harping on something would be more akin to "If you're a fag, then you are going to Hell....lalala-lala."  I don't think anyone is really advocating for that level of lyric writing that is even distasteful to other Christians and lazy at best.

One of my new songs is called "Girl In the Window".  I did a lyric video with it.  It is a true story, but I wrote it to show that sometimes child abuse can be neglect.  It isn't always beating a child or sexual molestation.  With the story, you can see that neglect is wrong without judging someone and condemning them to whatever punishment I have handpicked or wished on them.


alldatndensum wrote:Oh, let's all just write crappy worship lyrics or write poetic pieces about slaying dragons and such.  Yeah, that will bring in the lost!

ThomasEversole wrote:You're attitude really sucks sometimes. I remember clearly you banning my prior user name in 2012 for being sarcastic / passive aggressive in a gay marriage thread. ...yet this post you made clearly makes you a hypocrite to that.

That really re-scars resentment, and marks yet another time you've been a whirling cypher of destruction here.


I was trying to be humorous but I take it that it didn't work or wasn't well received.  I apologize for that.  I am sorry that I offended you, Thomas.  I really just wanted to lighten the tone of the thread.  I did not mean to come off so harshly.  I also apologize to the staff for my behavior.  I will check my attitude at the door.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:39 am

alldatndensum wrote:
Jesus called out sinners in a hardcore way to show them that they were out of the will of God.  Of course, He is God and knew when to go for the jugular verbally and when to apply the grace.  We don't have that divine filter.

Our filter may not be divine, but we still have one! Publishing a metal song online has no off button and no crowd limits. This is where we as Christians "apply the grace" and not loudly tell the entire world you sin and you suck.

alldatndensum wrote:
One of my new songs is called "Girl In the Window".  I did a lyric video with it.  It is a true story, but I wrote it to show that sometimes child abuse can be neglect.  It isn't always beating a child or sexual molestation.  With the story, you can see that neglect is wrong without judging someone and condemning them to whatever punishment I have handpicked or wished on them.

Yeah, that's the lyric video I thought you did well on. I get the example, but there's a pretty big difference between bringing awareness "neglect is bad" and confronting sin "neglect is SIN". Your track obviously points out that neglect is bad.

alldatndensum wrote:I was trying to be humorous but I take it that it didn't work or wasn't well received.  I apologize for that.  I am sorry that I offended you, Thomas.  I really just wanted to lighten the tone of the thread.  I did not mean to come off so harshly.  I also apologize to the staff for my behavior.  I will check my attitude at the door.

Wouldn't be the first time either that I blew up the internet because I missed a joke. I'd like to blame that there's no emoticon or LOL to set the context, but I think I'm to blame for my state of mind when I made that reply. Were I out with my wife or at work, I would have been a completely different post, but no I had to say something at 3am while I was up hurling because chemotherapy sucks.

I'll apologize for my part as well. I was overdue for my regular Exo check anyway. :B
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by messiaen77 on Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:21 pm

crucifyd wrote:living according to Christ MAY include broadcasting how wrong an entire group of people are...

there is a time and a place for everything...

do you think Jesus never "broadcast how wrong" a group of people were?
Yes, generally speaking the group was the religious folk going around broadcasting how wrong other groups were.

alldatndensum wrote:I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing to call out sin.  How we go about it is key.  If I come off as angry and condescending towards others, then I have lost them regardless of genre.  If I can weave that into a story that people will listen to, then I've given the audience food for thought.  Its up to the Holy Spirit at that point anyway.
Yes, speaking the truth IN LOVE is key.  That's one reason I HATE most anti-abortion songs I've heard.  They seem to have poor innocent little baby, heartless, self-absorbed mother, evil, genocidal doctors.  It's like a musical Chick tract.  Yes, "The Girl in the Window" (sorry if that's not the right title, going from memory) is a good example of hooking the listener with a story rather than banging them over the head.


ThomasEversole wrote:There's nothing wrong with confronting sin, but I don't think blanket-confronting it as a published metal track is the way to go about it.  

There's nothing wrong with being provocative, but all I've seen in this thread regarding that is:
- lyrics that are offensive to the sinner,
- watering the message down to candy coat it or
- an ambiguous "it needs to be done the right way" without saying how that right way is.

I have yet to see a decent example of Christian metal addressing hardcore sin in a way that's not horrifying or tacky.  Seriously, there are much better topics to invest in.

The other aspect of this that bothers me is an odor of self glorification.  What is the drive to see a message in metal that condemns others?  Those of you clamoring to see lyrics point out and condemn sinning others, remind me of that kid who hates school, wanting lyrics to a song that say how dumb school is...
Honestly, I mostly agree with this, mostly the last statement.  People like to put others in their places, and Christians are not immune to that.  We also have to fight off the Pharisaical attitude of "at least I don't...".  We like to fashion ourselves as OT prophets crying out "Woe unto you sinners," forgetting that they were being used in a time before the Holy Spirit was sent into the world.  

I think the reason we aren't seeing examples of doing it the right way in this thread is because there isn't "the" right way.  Some people really do respond to being scolded.  Some people need to be led to come to the conclusion "on their own."  


Andreas89 wrote:^Add to that the fact that each period of time has its own blind spots towards what's right and wrong. There's not much love involved in ignoring that just not to offend people. Being offended isn't necessarily a bad thing.
And each period of time has its own "pet sin" that it believes is the worst thing.  In the 80s it was abortion, in the 90s it was promiscuity and pre-marital sex, now it is sexual deviance.  You can call me whatever you want and say whatever you want about me, but I am far less concerned with those sins than I am with the attitudes of the heart I see on display from many within the body of Christ, myself at the top of the list.  If we are going to call out sin in our music, then by golly, let's call it all out.  Let's call out our pride.  Let's call out the tendency to label all Welfare recipients "lazy".  Let's call out our idolatry of making loving our country synonymous with loving God.  Let's proclaim judgement on our nation because of our overindulgence.  I mean, if church leaders are going to make the claim that God is wiping Midwestern towns virtually off the map because of our nation's acceptance of the 3.4% of the population who are gay, what calamities have the 35.7% of the population that is obese (myself included) brought upon us?

My point is that we are all fine and dandy with calling out sin . . . as long as it is someone else's.

I agree that sometimes showing love means being willing to violate people's comfort zones and telling them what they need to hear instead of what they want to hear, but I also think there is a tendency to use that argument to justify being jerks to people because they sin differently than we do.
ThomasEversole wrote:
alldatndensum wrote:
I think the point of it would be to illustrate what sin is so that a person would understand why you needed Jesus in the first place.  Who needs salvation if they don't know they are a sinner?  How will they know if no one tells them?  For people who never step foot in a church, the people and media they consume may be the only Jesus they get.  Why shouldn't musicians write about whatever they feel is important even if it is calling people sinners?  We are ALL sinners.

Realistically, anyone who breaks the law knows they're doing wrong. Not even that actually. Wife beaters, chomos, liars, thieves have gotten the memo thousands of times before they listen to a Christian metal track saying it's wrong.

Sin to those outside the faith is a useless factoid. What's needed is conviction and a change of heart to bring weight to sin and the need for change. It's important to tear down the old building so a new one can be put back up.

Harping on hardcore sin is not the way to do this. Not even one track. You could just as well reinforce someone's old building by "attacking" their lifestyle personally. If they've got the attitude for it, you've successfully pushed them farther out of reach.

Andreas, I get what you're saying about offending someone needing to happen perhaps, but is your jam really the place to do that? It's too much a shot in the dark. What if a gay bashing Christian song sends someone into a deadly spiraling depression? Spree killings have started for less as well...

There's only so many ways to say the same thing. If a band really wants to make a difference, they'll cover more ground with God's love than griping on sin. Taking this approach - in giant letters on the front of the shirt is you're wrong, here's how you're wrong, oh by the way, the back of the shirt says believe in Jesus.

It wreaks of ego as well. Like you've got to E.dge G.od O.ut just to make a point of how wrong someone is...
Actually it isn't true that anyone who breaks the law knows they are doing wrong.  Most people justify their actions to make them ok/right/noble in their minds.  And sin is a useless concept outside of the faith.  I was raised to know that you had to know you were a sinner in order to know you need a savior.  I'm not so sure that is accurate in the sense they meant it.  They meant you had to be told by someone that what you were doing was sinful.  I think that unless the Holy Spirit is telling you, you're never gonna accept it.  I hear so many conversations between Christians and non-Christians that go something like "You shouldn't X, it is a sin."  "So?"  The world sins because that's what it does.  It is normal.  Only in the economy of Spirit-led transformation through Christ is "sin" aberrant.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by WildWorld on Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:47 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:Wouldn't referencing just the effects of sin be (to quote the original post) "skirting" the real issue?
I think it would be more helpful, as it shows that sin does have consequences. Look at most of the anti-drug songs out there for example (both Christian and secular). A lot of them don't simply say "don't do drugs", they talk about how drugs are destructive and lead to depression and death. By explaining . Explaining why something is bad is a lot more effective than simply condemning it. Heres that skillet song for example:





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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by New Creation on Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:21 am

I'm just baffled at some of the views in this thread. We are called throughout God's Word to judge ourselves and others. So, I started a thread on judging and what happens? Some of my brothers in Christ JUDGE me for judging. The hypocrisy is strong in here.

A misconception often made by onlookers is that Christians who judge somehow think they're more righteous than the ones being judged. In many cases, this could not be farther from the truth. The very heart of the gospel is that we are not righteous in and of ourselves and the only reason that God sees us as righteous is because we are in His Son Christ Jesus, we carry His identity, not our own.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:04 am

messiaen77 wrote:People like to put others in their places, and Christians are not immune to that.  We also have to fight off the Pharisaical attitude of "at least I don't...".  

Lets also not forget the mindset of "You need to clean up a little bit before we get you to Jesus."

WildWorld wrote:Explaining why something is bad is a lot more effective than simply condemning it.

Well yeah, but merely saying something is bad is NOT condemning sin.  This thread is about condemning sin in Christian metal.

New Creation wrote:I'm just baffled at some of the views in this thread. We are called throughout God's Word to judge ourselves and others. So, I started a thread on judging and what happens? Some of my brothers in Christ JUDGE me for judging. The hypocrisy is strong in here.

Maybe you should get it straight before you start calling anyone a hypocrite, that we're all 100% for condemning sin.  Its Biblical - I'll speak for everyone and agree its to be done.  

Why does it have to be done in a metal song?  Hello?  That's what this is about.
Metal is art and entertainment, and we're going to just throw some condemn sin in there?  What's next, Christian artwork/paintings that show the evils of homosexuals and they need Jesus?
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:38 am

ThomasEversole wrote:Why does it have to be done in a metal song?  Hello?  That's what this is about.
Metal is art and entertainment, and we're going to just throw some condemn sin in there?  What's next, Christian artwork/paintings that show the evils of homosexuals and they need Jesus?
Almost every band has a message. Why would the gospel (which confronts sin) be excluded from that?
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:44 am

messiaen77 wrote:
Andreas89 wrote:^Add to that the fact that each period of time has its own blind spots towards what's right and wrong. There's not much love involved in ignoring that just not to offend people. Being offended isn't necessarily a bad thing.
[snip]

My point is that we are all fine and dandy with calling out sin . . . as long as it is someone else's.

[snip]
If that is your point, then you don't know me that well (which is OK, this is an internet forum). In no way I meant that judging the sins of others means ignoring your own.

Anyway, as far as specific sins go, I'm not a big advocate. It's the "sin behind the sin" (call it the broken connection between us and God) that is way more interesting as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by exo on Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:48 am

ThomasEversole wrote:Why does it have to be done in a metal song?  Hello?  That's what this is about.
Metal is art and entertainment, and we're going to just throw some condemn sin in there?  What's next, Christian artwork/paintings that show the evils of homosexuals and they need Jesus?

Here's the problem:  you're tunnel visioned in on "metal is art and entertainment", as though that is the end all/be all of things.  There are those out there for whom Christian oriented metal (or rock, or any other genre, for that matter) is MORE than mere art or entertainment.....there are myriad views on what "Christian metal" means, differing for just about everyone.  *I* listen to music for entertainment purposes,  I'm inclined towards a similar viewpoint on the matter as yourself.

But......

You seem rather unwilling to let other folks hold a view contrary to your own about "what metal is", as though every person should be seeking JUST what you do out of it.  That's just not how it works, man......you have no more exclusive claim to "what metal is" than any one else engaged in this thread.   I'd venture to say that the way you have taken people to task over things while arguing as if you DO has probably closed more ears to your viewpoint than it has opened.

If you are unwilling to acknowledge that music CAN be more than art and entertainment, then I HAVE to question how productive the continued back and forth with folks is really gonna be. (Don't read too much into that statement; I'm NOT expecting you to bow out of the conversation, just wondering out loud if you're just gonna get yourself frustrated and pissed off at people, and that's really "worth it"). 

Not everyone is listening for the same reasons, and other viewpoints are equally as valid.....

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:33 am

exo wrote:
Here's the problem:  you're tunnel visioned in on "metal is art and entertainment", as though that is the end all/be all of things.

I can concede how someone would think Christian metal is a ministry, whether they're the listener or the band. Its not only because of metal being art. I just think with how public, how mercantile, how much flair Christian metal is (whether we call it art or not), its tacky to condemn sin.

I'd have a similar response if a preacher went about condemning sin in a loud and fun, sellin' merch kind of way as well.

Oh, this metal/art thing hasn't been my only focus. There's obviously a miscommunication regarding what condemning sin means, as I wouldn't consider a song about "lying is bad" is somehow the same as condemning sin.

exo wrote:I'd venture to say that the way you have taken people to task over things while arguing as if you DO has probably closed more ears to your viewpoint than it has opened.

Really Exo? That's not necessary, and you know what happens when you ass/u/me. I just got a PM yesterday entitled "Thanks for being the voice of reason" regarding this thread. Just because you don't agree and I'm the only one being heard, doesn't mean I should regret any of the points I've made here.

exo wrote:I'm NOT expecting you to bow out of the conversation, just wondering out loud if you're just gonna get yourself frustrated and pissed off at people, and that's really "worth it").
 

I'm not the least bit frustrated that people don't see my view. Wouldn't be the first time.
Obviously I went swinging when I thought alldat's "crappy worship lyrics" comment wasn't a joke... I'd get mad over miscommunications like that, but that could just as easily happen in any other thread.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by exo on Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:27 am

ThomasEversole wrote:Really Exo?  That's not necessary, and you know what happens when you ass/u/me.  I just got a PM yesterday entitled "Thanks for being the voice of reason" regarding this thread.  Just because you don't agree and I'm the only one being heard, doesn't mean I should regret any of the points I've made here.



Well, let me phrase it another way, then:

What I see here, in a very general sense, is you harpng on and dogging the concept of dogmatic and aggressive confrontation of sin in music, and doing so in a manner that from  my personal observation point is rather dogmatic and aggressive in it's own nature.  My point being that if it's a turnoff to a message for one set of circumstances, it should logically follow that the approach can be a turnoff under OTHER circumstances as well; simply being "in music" doesn't grant dogmaticism and aggression special superpowers that don't translate to other forms of communication.


Chide me like a child about "assuming" all you wish, brother.....but I have a distinct lack of belief that I am the only observer that sees it.......The Internet is indeed the great miscommunicator, though.

Now, having said my piece, I'm heading back into "observer" mode.  Think over what I've said, or discard it as rubbish as you will.  If my observations on the matter mean little to you, so be it........

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"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by xMetalMarkx on Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:20 am

Because there are fewer bands taking a certain type of lyrical approach these days, does it necessarily signify that the members or the projects are wishy-washy or wimpy in their handling of the Gospel?

Post hoc ergo proper hoc?

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:37 pm

exo wrote:
What I see here, in a very general sense, is you harpng on and dogging the concept of dogmatic and aggressive confrontation of sin in music, and doing so in a manner that from  my personal observation point is rather dogmatic and aggressive in it's own nature.

Ever play sports with uneven teams? I have before. Badminton where I was one team, and 3 other people were the other. (nothing professional, just backyard family fun) The point wasn't whether or not I was or wasn't considered an aggressive player, but if I could play my side.

You know, since being diagnosed with cancer, I have a hard time giving one crap about a lot of things. The content of Christian metal lyrics is one topic that I still feel strongly about, and since I want to care, I want to play my side. If you ever read Orationem lyrics sometime, you'll probably have a better idea of what I mean.

Exo, you know I respect you and will always listen to what you say, but sorry chief - I care about this topic a little more than just letting the birdie drop right this minute.

xMetalMarkx wrote:
Make the music you want to hear!

How many people can honestly say that the music they make is their favorite Christian metal?
Perhaps I'm luckier than I thought...
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by alldatndensum on Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:17 pm

I can concede how someone would think Christian metal is a ministry, whether they're the listener or the band. Its not only because of metal being art. I just think with how public, how mercantile, how much flair Christian metal is (whether we call it art or not), its tacky to condemn sin.

Looking back through to the original post, I think I've found what the hangup is here for you, Thomas.  The original poster says that Christian metal doesn't CONFRONT sin.  He did not say CONDEMN sin.  The meanings of those words is totally different.  To confront is to oppose, to contradict, to present for acknowledgement.  To condemn is to express and adverse or unfavorable judgment upon someone.  I think the original poster is saying that we SHOULD identify sin but SHOULD NOT condemn the one who commits said offense.  To me, there is a huge difference.  This may not help bring about a middle ground view, but I am seeing a difference.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:54 pm

You're right. I did exchange confront for condemn there and that's my mistake.

Still doesn't change that I still think confronting sin with Christian metal is tacky. ...or saying that something is bad is the same as confronting sin.

It does change the weight of the issue to me though.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Andreas89 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:51 am

Well it's an easy mistake to make. I think alldat has put it in the right way.

As for CONDEMNING sin, I think that songs with the subject of for example child abuse have at least a similar feel to them. In both cases, it's calling out behaviour to be evil/bad. The reasons might differ, but I don't think there's a huge difference in general. So yeah, tacky, but why not? It's the artist's freedom. Not many texts in metal are very profound, and even though lyrics can play a big role, it's not the reason I got hooked to metal Razz

As for CONFRONTING sin, I don't think it's listing a whole bunch of particular sins. Sin can only be truly confronted when it goes much deeper. Particular sins aren't the key reason for our broken connection with God; there's something bigger behind it.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by Soldier777 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:36 am

I've been meaning to post some thought for a while on this subject.

I partly agree with New Creation on the judging part. However, we as Christians should hold each other accountable. It's not that you judge others, but you help another believer get on the right path instead of he/she going down the wrong highway and get on the road to reconciliation.

Regarding music or Christian Metal no longer confronting sin, are we referring to veteran/classic bands that has been around for 20+ years not confronting sin or the newer bands that has been around under 15 years not confronting sin? I take it to mean all bands in all genres. I am more into the veteran/classic bands and I am not an expert on the newer bands except for HB and Theocracy and I have no problem with the lyrics of these bands. With I go through my CD collection of the classic bands over the entire back catalogue of certain bands sin is not really discussed at all or rarely in a song or 2. For example, the band Angelica as far a I can remember don't really confront sin but most of their lyrics are about relying on God for hope and salvation like Walkin in Faith, Hold On, and One Hero. Other band confront sin head on like the Resurrection Band. However, in terms of JPUSA involvement of the alleged sex accusations, sometime I wonder in the back of my mind when I put on a Rez song their involvement in this - but that is a discussion for another day.

Other bands who discuss sin in their lyrics talk not about the result of sin on an individual level but on a massive long term world scale. Saint does this on some of their songs about the end times. One of the most descriptive songs about sin I have come across from a band that you wouldn't expect this from is When the Reign Come Down by Holy Soldier. That song is dripping with imagery like, "licks the lips of the mouth of hell and spews eternal fire". That song is basically saying you should get your act together or there is hell to pay.

Just because a band don't talk about sin explicitly doesn't meant they are watering down their lyrics similar to a happy sing come baya Joel Olsteen sermon. Some bands prefer to stick to a certain theme that has the full gospel message.

One thing I like to add. I noticed  a shift in Stryper's lyrics in the 80's compared since they got together in 2003. I find their lyrics were the general get saved God loves you in the 80's to more descriptive lyrics centering around the same themes in songs like Yahweh, King of Kings and Revelation. Revelation discusses sin in the lyrics.

If some of you are concerned about the lyrical content of your favorite bands, in this time in history there are various methods of approaching them. You can use Facebook, twitter and other methods. I'm sure some bands don't mind in talking about it as long as the fans are polite and not confrontational. You can also pray for the band that God will give them insight on what subjects to write about that is more meaningful.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:19 am

Soldier777 wrote:One of the most descriptive songs about sin I have come across from a band that you wouldn't expect this from is When the Reign Come Down by Holy Soldier. That song is dripping with imagery like, "licks the lips of the mouth of hell and spews eternal fire". That song is basically saying you should get your act together or there is hell to pay.

That sounds like a song better fitting to my secular pallet than my Christian one... but I digress. I get bands will form their own lyrical niches. Maybe confronting sin is their thing. I've never said it was wrong - said it was tacky a whole bunch of times though.

I'd rather jam out and get some spiritual fulfillment (aka Joel Osteen kumbaya) than jam out and be perpetually reminded how much sin is in the world... but that's just me.

Soldier777 wrote:If some of you are concerned about the lyrical content of your favorite bands, in this time in history there are various methods of approaching them. You can use Facebook, twitter and other methods. I'm sure some bands don't mind in talking about it as long as the fans are polite and not confrontational. You can also pray for the band that God will give them insight on what subjects to write about that is more meaningful.

Oh man, what I bolded is dripping with irony. So we in the Christian metal scene can understand that confronting a band on Facebook wouldn't be in the best taste, but confronting the entire world with a personal heavy topic tastes just fine?

This makes zero sense to me.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by messiaen77 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:33 pm

Andreas89 wrote:
messiaen77 wrote:
Andreas89 wrote:^Add to that the fact that each period of time has its own blind spots towards what's right and wrong. There's not much love involved in ignoring that just not to offend people. Being offended isn't necessarily a bad thing.
[snip]

My point is that we are all fine and dandy with calling out sin . . . as long as it is someone else's.

[snip]
If that is your point, then you don't know me that well (which is OK, this is an internet forum). In no way I meant that judging the sins of others means ignoring your own.

Anyway, as far as specific sins go, I'm not a big advocate. It's the "sin behind the sin" (call it the broken connection between us and God) that is way more interesting as far as I'm concerned.
Oops, I totally see how you might have thought I was directing my comment at you and I apologize.  I intended it as a general statement that covered myself as well.  I'm totally with you that the biggest issue is fixing the connection between God and humanity.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by New Creation on Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:12 pm

Question for Thomas Eversole:

Do you appreciate the message in this video? (whether you like the music or not is another matter)

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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by ThomasEversole on Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:09 pm

I've seen that before on YouTube. Smile

I do appreciate the overall message as a whole, there's more than a few details I don't care for. For one, I've never liked lyrics that repeat more than normal reading. Ie:

This song we sing to silence the suffering
When will we hear their cries (WHEN WILL WE HEAR THEIR CRIES)
This song we sing to silence the suffering
When will we open our eyes (WHEN WILL WE OPEN OUR EYES)
This song we sing to silence the suffering
When will we hear their cries (WHEN WILL WE HEAR THEIR CRIES)
This song we sing to silence the suffering

It just sounds like Tom Green wrote it when it's that repetitive.

For two, it doesn't touch on the Christ solution. If I had to sum up the song in a sentence or less, it would be, "Human trafficking is bad and we need to do something about it."

Ok... so, what do we do about it? Do we call the police? Take them into our homes? The song doesn't address that or say HOW to "fight". It's already been mentioned about sin being a Christian concept, so when Christ isn't there, it's just raising awareness for a situation that's not humane. Therefore, it doesn't confront sin.

Nothing wrong with that. It is a positive message. It just doesn't quack or have feathers so I can't call it a duck.

Make sense?
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

Post by New Creation on Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:34 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:It's already been mentioned about sin being a Christian concept, so when Christ isn't there, it's just raising awareness for a situation that's not humane. Therefore, it doesn't confront sin.

Make sense?

Really good observation. Christ should be the center of all.


My efforts to "trap" you in your argument failed.  Very Happy

But, one does not have to be for Christ or speak His name to call out sin. Romans 13 clearly shows us that the government, which is not a Christian institution, bears a sword for use on the wicked.
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Re: Christian metal no longer confronts sin

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