Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Andreas89 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:30 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
Andreas89 wrote:Tim L. has a lot to prove to us christians about his sincerity. Simply saying "yeah I'm christian again" and releasing new music with christian lyrics isn't enough as far as I'm concerned.

Yes Tim made an unusually huge mistake for a Christian metal artist, but I don't think its fair to weigh art and heart together as a spectator.  

Myself, years ago, I was a raging alcoholic.  Ended up in jail about 8-9 different times, and I have a (violent) felony on my record (back in 2005).  I wouldn't think it was fair at all if someone threw that in my face today in regards to my Christian music, especially since I've changed, especially since someone not knowing that about my past would still retain the full intention of the Christian music and lyrics I do now.  The same works with Tim.

I know there's a time difference here, with my shenanigans being from over 10 years ago and Tim's was 4 years ago, but that still shouldn't weigh with the presentation of art and message.  If we're going to hold personal sins against musicians, then we better start digging and weighing everybody for what sins they do in their lives, and we might as well establish a timeline of "X years passed" being acceptable and "Y years passed" being unacceptable.

We all sin, and no listener of music judges the sins of a musician.  Its unfair, its biased and its unrelated to hold a Christian project accountable for something a member did that's unrelated to said project.  Now if Tim's lyrics, past or present, promoted the idea of hitmen or attempted murder, and my lyrics promoted being drunk and shoving down people while trying to leave the hospital during medical treatment, THEN there's room to talk.

Otherwise, like bigtreads said, we're stabbing our already wounded brothers in a war against evil.
I think you're missing the point. It is exactly Tim's rehabilitation that I have in mind, NOT his project(s). I'm quite willing to believe he has bettered his life, but for his own sake I think it's best to make his first move a careful one. A good idea IMO would be him telling his story in a youtube video, or something else that everyone can have access to. Before his imprisonment, he made money off people who trusted him to live according to his christian lyrics; I agree with you that that's not the wisest thing to do, but people do it anyway as you and I both very well know. So if his first step back to his fans would be something nobody has to pay for, it might create some goodwill. But let me state this very clearly: I don't think he HAS to do such a thing, and I don't think it is a good measuring point for his sincerity. Think of it more as a suggestion.

To be honest, when I read your post I was appalled and angry, but I thought the best way to deal with it is to clarify myself. Sorry if I have been unclear with my previous post.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:10 am

Andreas89 wrote:A good idea IMO would be him telling his story in a youtube video, or something else that everyone can have access to.
I think thats a genius idea as well
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Wildcat on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:07 pm

I could never get into AILD, so it's not really a personal issue for me. I get why people who would otherwise like the music would be reluctant to support any comeback projects should he attempt them though. 

I would think it's not so much that he publicly got caught doing something wrong although he did. The real issue I can see is that in the aftermath of that, he spoke at length about how he didn't even consider himself a Christian for several years prior, but kept up the act because that was his built in audience. I certainly do hope that he's since made things right with God, but given that information, I can also completely understand how some people would be wary of getting duped again should he attempt to return to the Christian music market.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by sentient 6 on Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:36 am

Does anyone know if Tim has actually repented of his sin and stated that his faith and hope was in the Lord Jesus Christ ? Because if he hasn't done that, I will treat him and his art as any other secular artist that live a life of unrepented sin and rebellion to God.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by messiaen77 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 am

Can we really know if someone has "actually repented of his [her] sin"?  Do we know that about anyone?  

But I understand what you are asking, and I don't think he's really done any interviews since that big one that went around a couple years ago.  I know Pastor Bob had been counseling him, but he has not revealed any information about what happened (nor should he).
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by jaydeecrawson on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:15 am

I think all of you should read the "Outsider Test of Faith" by John Loftus. It's also been explained and expanded in his printed books:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/05/christianity-miserably-fails-outsider.html

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Became-Atheist-Preacher-Christianity/dp/1591025923/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Step back and seriously read what you all have been saying about this guy as if you were an outsider...

I'm scandalized and frankly embarrassed that I used to do and say some of the things you all are doing. Many years ago I realized I had a *personal* stake or agenda in the particular doctrine or theological spin that I was using to examine situations like this in my own life...

Most, if not all of you, are coming to the table with theological prejudices and you instinctively take it personal when someone has dramatically different interpretations than your own. It's none of our business what Tim thinks or does with his life.

Step back and re-read what some of you said. It's childish and some of the comments are legalistic as well.

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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by d@v!d on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:42 am

jaydeecrawson wrote:I think all of you should read the "Outsider Test of Faith" by John Loftus. It's also been explained and expanded in his printed books:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2007/05/christianity-miserably-fails-outsider.html

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Became-Atheist-Preacher-Christianity/dp/1591025923/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
Do you have a direct link for it where I can look at it, or are the questions in the first link what it is? Some of those are good questions. I've personally dealt with all of them in that link. For me on a philosophical level, nothing satisfies better, meaning, purpose, and origin of life than Christianity. For me personally, the bottom line is that I'm a sinner. More so, I'm a wicked man. Left to my own devices, if not for the arresting grace of God in my life, I would have either destroyed myself long ago, or I would be instrumental in the great suffering of other people today. If you, Loftus, or some other manage to knock me off the pedestal of my faith, you better have something greater to replace it with, because else-wise the world will become that much sadder a place for a time.

  Step back and seriously read what you all have been saying about this guy as if you were an outsider...

    I'm scandalized and frankly embarrassed that I used to do and say some of the things you all are doing. Many years ago I realized I had a *personal* stake or agenda in the particular doctrine or theological spin that I was using to examine situations like this in my own life...
Yes, there is a terrible campiness about this thread. But, this forum is a nerd club after all, if you are posting here, it should follow that you've stowed away your ability to feel embarrassment before coming in.
Most, if not all of you, are coming to the table with theological prejudices and you instinctively take it personal when someone has dramatically different interpretations than your own.
Yes. Sad but true. Unfortunately we aren't all on the same page. Lord willing, we'll get there sooner or later. Or maybe never...
It's none of our business what Tim thinks or does with his life. Step back and re-read what some of you said. It's childish and some of the comments are legalistic as well.
True and yet here we are. But here's the thing. He sold us his art back in the day claiming to be something that he later revealed that he wasn't, so I think we have some business discussing what he thinks and does. But, I feel what you're saying and commend your courage to call it out. It's kind of silly.


Back to Loftus. You're mentioning of him reminded me of a debate I watched some time ago.


I think both he and you share a need: the defibrillator. Wink
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by jaydeecrawson on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:28 pm

Well, if it isn't Jonathan Edwards himself.

How did I know you'd chime in?

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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Andreas89 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Hey, be nice. Things already got a bit heated here, but we all managed to keep things calm, don't ruin it.

And FYI, it's up to nobody to determine whether or not a person is a "true christian", it's nobody's business; but when the person who claims to be a "true christian" makes money off people because of his (alleged) christianity, it does become other people's business. The question is to what extent.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by d@v!d on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:05 pm

jaydeecrawson wrote:Well, if it isn't Jonathan Edwards himself.

How did I know you'd chime in?
Well if you want to pretend to be intellectual and cry every time you are confronted with an opposing idea, I don't know what to say. I'm sorry for you. The truth is that you are a liar. You say you want thought and then balk at it. Not very honest. You say we need to scrutinize our beliefs and when I say I have, you have nothing of substance to say in response. Why is it so important for you to ask us to ditch our faith when you offer nothing better? Pretty shallow.

What are you afraid of? God? Truth? God is merciful. Turn to Him and be saved. You can keep shaking your fist all the way to hell. In the end it will be a sad sight for everyone to see and would make no-one happy. I'll pray for you. Take care.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by deathisgain on Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:14 pm

d@v!d wrote:
jaydeecrawson wrote:Well, if it isn't Jonathan Edwards himself.

How did I know you'd chime in?
Well if you want to pretend to be intellectual and cry every time you are confronted with an opposing idea, I don't know what to say. I'm sorry for you. The truth is that you are a liar. You say you want thought and then balk at it. Not very honest. You say we need to scrutinize our beliefs and when I say I have, you have nothing of substance to say in response. Why is it so important for you to ask us to ditch our faith when you offer nothing better? Pretty shallow.

What are you afraid of? God? Truth? God is merciful. Turn to Him and be saved. You can keep shaking your fist all the way to hell. In the end it will be a sad sight for everyone to see and would make no-one happy. I'll pray for you. Take care.

Wait, your name is Johnathan Edwards? I always thought it was d@v!d
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Hardcore Christian on Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:45 pm

deathisgain wrote:
d@v!d wrote:
jaydeecrawson wrote:Well, if it isn't Jonathan Edwards himself.

How did I know you'd chime in?
Well if you want to pretend to be intellectual and cry every time you are confronted with an opposing idea, I don't know what to say. I'm sorry for you. The truth is that you are a liar. You say you want thought and then balk at it. Not very honest. You say we need to scrutinize our beliefs and when I say I have, you have nothing of substance to say in response. Why is it so important for you to ask us to ditch our faith when you offer nothing better? Pretty shallow.

What are you afraid of? God? Truth? God is merciful. Turn to Him and be saved. You can keep shaking your fist all the way to hell. In the end it will be a sad sight for everyone to see and would make no-one happy. I'll pray for you. Take care.

Wait, your name is Johnathan Edwards? I always thought it was d@v!d
Dude! I thought you died in 1758! tongue
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by ThomasEversole on Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:43 pm

Andreas89 wrote:To be honest, when I read your post I was appalled and angry, but I thought the best way to deal with it is to clarify myself. Sorry if I have been unclear with my previous post.

I apologize for being appalling and angering you.  That definitely wasn't my intention.  
Obviously, with my example, you can see that this issue hits home with me a bit.  I know things would be calmer/friendlier around here if we all stepped on eggshells or beat around the bush, but sometimes (with some points) I think I and my brothers deserve to have it "dropped like its hot" every once in a while.

Andreas89 wrote:Before his imprisonment, he made money off people who trusted him to live according to his christian lyrics; I agree with you that that's not the wisest thing to do, but people do it anyway as you and I both very well know. So if his first step back to his fans would be something nobody has to pay for, it might create some goodwill. But let me state this very clearly: I don't think he HAS to do such a thing, and I don't think it is a good measuring point for his sincerity. Think of it more as a suggestion.

I understand the suggestion and the importance of it.  Just as important that its suggested to a skydiver to pull the ripcord before he hits the ground.  ...but I obviously have a very different perspective than some of you here, on the entertainment/business aspects of music being completely different from a personal faith and ministry.

My perspective is also different as to how sorry he is or isn't being any of our business.  This is between him and God - not him and God and his fans.

I think if you buy a Christian album, it should be what it is for YOU spiritually and musically - not what the band is doing, how they're doing, how they were doing 4 years ago, or what they're spending / have spent CD sales on.  

Wildcat wrote:I can also completely understand how some people would be wary of getting duped again should he attempt to return to the Christian music market.

The only way a Christian was ever duped from buying a CD from a Tim Lambesis project, was if they ordered the CD and never got it.  What Tim did or didn't do in his life is unrelated to the quality of his product (in this case, a CD) that was purchased.
_____________________________

Let me give both you gents an example.  When my brother was younger, he hated onions and would avoid eating them.  One time, my mother made chili and finely ground up onions in it so he couldn't see them.  He LOVED the chili - thought it tasted great.  He was chowing down on his second bowl, when my mom just had to tell him she put onions in it.  He immediately stopped eating it because he "doesn't like onions".

I never understood why he stopped eating it.  He obviously liked it, but once he found out something about it, his "not liking onions" was the reason for boycotting it, even though the chili was very delicious.

That's what this looks like to me.  

Hypothetical situation here, we're all jamming out to this new Christian metal album, when the news hits that the main dude robbed a liquor store.  I feel like half of you would immediately "stop eating", because you "don't like onions".

Really?  If he was never caught robbing a liquor store, but still doing it, you'd STILL be enjoying the album just the same.  You'd be getting the same spiritual and headbanging satisfaction, all by simply not knowing.  So how does what he did effect YOUR absorption of awesome music with a wholesome message?

I mean, you're all adults.  This is in the spectrum of decision making, you have every right to avoid something for whatever imaginary reason...  but in my opinion, its just not very "real" to stop liking something because of something else you don't like.  

That is all.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by exo on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Problem being having knowledge DOES affect views.  You can't just say "what if xxxx happened, but you didn't know..."  It's nowhere NEAR the same situation, because the whole problem in the first place is that you DO know.  Knowledge affects things.

"Art" is NOT separate from the individual, it is a PART of the individual. "Quality" of the art is not part of the equation; the problem deals with ENJOYMENT of the art. As far as Tim Lambesis projects  are concerned for me, his "art" is ALWAYS going to be colored by the fact that he tried to have his wife killed. They're both products of the same man..  It's a stain on a portion of "him" that leeches thru the whole, and in that process it stains other portions......there's nothing "imaginary" about it. 


And as far as people feeling "duped".....there's admitted, deliberate deception by omission involved.  He's on the record as saying he maintained a facade to not lose audience and income.  He sold product to an audience based on a spiritual perception he knew his audience had of him. People have EVERY right to feel duped, because that's EXACTLY what happened!

_________________
“But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by ThomasEversole on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:07 pm

exo wrote:As far as Tim Lambesis projects  are concerned for me, his "art" is ALWAYS going to be colored by the fact that he tried to have his wife killed. They're both products of the same man..  It's a stain on a portion of "him" that leeches thru the whole, and in that process it stains other portions......there's nothing "imaginary" about it.

Yeah, sorry - that imaginary term was rather passive aggressive.

Sins from people only stain art if we setup a blockade. ...but its not just sin, but the time frame of it.

I mean, in 2005 (12 years ago - literally since this happened in a February) I was in jail for an aggravated battery. I was drunk, getting treated for it in a hospital, and I knocked down anyone who tried to stop me from leaving.

You know me better than Tim Lambesis, Exo. If you thought that my effed up thinking and behavior from then, made you think I was tricking people with my music today, or that Orationem is forever stained with my felony, that would really bother me.

If I don't deserve that stain, then neither does he. A lot can change in a person's thinking in 4 years, just like 12 years. I'm sure he had more than the average time to maul it over in his head, being in a cell and all. I know I did.

exo wrote:He's on the record as saying he maintained a facade to not lose audience and income.

He sold product to an audience based on a spiritual perception he knew his audience had of him. People have EVERY right to feel duped, because that's EXACTLY what happened!

Well, AILD was his job and him not saying anything was a PR issue.
What business would voluntarily proclaim to the public "Our boss is not a Christian" if that meant losing money and customers?
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by exo on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:16 pm

So deceptive practices in the name of PR is not actually deception?  You're reaching on this one, brother, and you're not Stretch Armstrong.....

_________________
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"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by exo on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:12 pm

As for the rest of your post (sorry, I was walkin my thru Target, not exactly the ideal time for exposition).....as I said, knowledge changes things.  I DO know you, have some sort of idea where your here and head are at.  That's key.   A decade and a half ago, give or take?  Thru peripheral contact,  I didn't have a high opinion of you to be blunt honest.  I was wary as heck when you started showing up here awhile back because of it.

You most definitely changed my perception, and I am REALLY glad you did.

Sometimes stains fade with time and care.


There's another key difference in the situations:  we're not talking about past behavior in regards to CURRENT "art", we're talking about "art" produced DURING the occurrences in the past coupled with a DELIBERATE deception DITECTLY related to said "art".  I'm ALWAYS going to have a tough time listening to stuff of his from that specific timeframe.  That DOESN'T mean I won't give something new he puts out a shot.  Just like in your case, I will GLADLY, if warily, give him the opportunity to change my perception, should he so choose.  I honestly care much more about whether or not he's got his head back on square than I do about whatever his  "art" may or may not contain........and that's not entirely concern merely over whatever his spiritual status may be.  Guy was MESSED UP.  I just hope he's NOT at this point.

The situations you pose really aren't exactly analogous in my thought process.  Sooooo many differences in details.......

_________________
“But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Mysterious Gamer Dude on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:19 pm

I truly hope Tim repented, don't get me wrong but if they record a new album I'm gonna sit back a while and see how things go. I'd hate to be tricked again. I just want to know if he's truly repented or not, or if the band is truly Christian or not. Not saying non-Christian music is bad, it's just the way I feel personally, I feel more in-tuned with God's Spirit when I know if the music is Christian or not.

All that aside, I hadn't heard much of their songs in the past just a handful. But from what songs I have heard I think their music is awesome.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:26 am

What I think will happen if he comes back is he wont label himself a Christian band at all, he might say hes a Christian in some sort of interview but I dont think hes going to label his first band/act he goes with as a Christian one

He may write Christian lyrics again but if I was in his position I would try to avoid being pigeon-holed so people dont think your just lying again

Anyway the biggest determining thing will be his first words to the world after all this

Thats why I understand him quietly getting out of jail and waiting for the right time to announce it
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Andreas89 on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:47 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
Andreas89 wrote:To be honest, when I read your post I was appalled and angry, but I thought the best way to deal with it is to clarify myself. Sorry if I have been unclear with my previous post.

I apologize for being appalling and angering you.  That definitely wasn't my intention.  
Obviously, with my example, you can see that this issue hits home with me a bit.  I know things would be calmer/friendlier around here if we all stepped on eggshells or beat around the bush, but sometimes (with some points) I think I and my brothers deserve to have it "dropped like its hot" every once in a while.
It's OK, I wouldn't have put it like that before dealing with the situation. I forgot where I could find it, but I believe it was Jesus who said that it's best to confront brothers with their wrongdoings (to use a strong word) after you forgive them. So it wasn't the emotion talking.

Let me get this clear by the way. I've never been in a situation where I felt "cheated" by a metal artist because I thought they were christian. The closest thing was with Sinbreed; their first album was clearly christian in its message, with the following album, things took a 180 degrees turn. That doesn't prevent me from enjoying their first album, partly because one of the lyricists wasn't in the band anymore, so I kind of knew where those lyrics were coming from.

There is another situation which may apply more, and it may give you a bit more insight in the sentiments behind the concept we've been discussing. In 2011, Rhapsody of Fire released the album From Chaos to Eternity. It was the first (and only, luckily) album to feature the guitar player/charlatan Tom Hess. He ruined the forum and the fanbase, and I've dealt with him personally on that forum; not a great man. On the aforementioned album, there was one song his guitar playing was dominant (which I could hear because Luca Turilli has a very distinct style of playing and he hasn't); for years after this whole situation, I couldn't bring myself enjoying that one song. It has worn off, but it needed time.
So IMO it's too easy to say that the artist himself and your enjoyment of his work are in no way connected.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:14 am

Andreas89 wrote:There is another situation which may apply more, and it may give you a bit more insight in the sentiments behind the concept we've been discussing. In 2011, Rhapsody of Fire released the album From Chaos to Eternity. It was the first (and only, luckily) album to feature the guitar player/charlatan Tom Hess. He ruined the forum and the fanbase, and I've dealt with him personally on that forum; not a great man. On the aforementioned album, there was one song his guitar playing was dominant (which I could hear because Luca Turilli has a very distinct style of playing and he hasn't); for years after this whole situation, I couldn't bring myself enjoying that one song. It has worn off, but it needed time.
So IMO it's too easy to say that the artist himself and your enjoyment of his work are in no way connected.
Because of Tim saying he hadn't been a Christian for awhile, I still listen to AILD's first 4 albums easily, The Powerless Rise is tough because it has very little positive faith related messages, that don't sound neutral, the last album I haven't listened to the day he was incarcerated
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Andreas89 on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:28 am

Any reason why you do or do not enjoy certain music is good enough.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:44 am

exo wrote:So deceptive practices in the name of PR is not actually deception? You're reaching on this one, brother, and you're not Stretch Armstrong.....

Omission of information isn't always deception. Have you told your boss at work the most horrible thing you've ever done? I haven't... and I wouldn't consider it dishonest because I haven't. They don't need to know that.

There's different types of honesty. If volunteering information hurts yourself or others, and keeping said information doesn't directly hurt anyone, then it's a non-issue.

exo wrote:As for the rest of your post (sorry, I was walkin my thru Target, not exactly the ideal time for exposition).....as I said, knowledge changes things.  I DO know you, have some sort of idea where your here and head are at.  That's key.   A decade and a half ago, give or take?  Thru peripheral contact,  I didn't have a high opinion of you to be blunt honest.  I was wary as heck when you started showing up here awhile back because of it.

You most definitely changed my perception, and I am REALLY glad you did.

Sometimes stains fade with time and care.


There's another key difference in the situations:  we're not talking about past behavior in regards to CURRENT "art", we're talking about "art" produced DURING the occurrences in the past coupled with a DELIBERATE deception DITECTLY related to said "art".  I'm ALWAYS going to have a tough time listening to stuff of his from that specific timeframe.  That DOESN'T mean I won't give something new he puts out a shot.  Just like in your case, I will GLADLY, if warily, give him the opportunity to change my perception, should he so choose.  I honestly care much more about whether or not he's got his head back on square than I do about whatever his  "art" may or may not contain........and that's not entirely concern merely over whatever his spiritual status may be.  Guy was MESSED UP.  I just hope he's NOT at this point.

The situations you pose really aren't exactly analogous in my thought process.  Sooooo many differences in details.......

Sounds like this is more of a personal issue than a faith based one. I mean, if we're going to hold Tim's lack of faith against his product/business, we might as well all stop drinking Pepsi because the CEO of PepsiCo is a huge advocate and outspoken for Hinduism.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by ThomasEversole on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:20 pm

Unless I haven't been clear, I don't see anything wrong with non-Christians producing Christian music. I know we all like to think that Christian music is a ministry of some sort, and we assume Christian music ONLY comes from Christians, but at its core, its no different than secular music in regards to the business aspects of it. All music is produced to be appealing to a market crowd, sold is for entertainment purposes and there is intention to gain a profit. (sure, there might be a stipulation where proceeds go towards something nice, but the "business model" is still there)

Excluding product and price differences, there is no alternate experience between shopping at a CD store owned by a Christian vs. one owned by an atheist. So why does what the producer believes or doesn't believe matter? Its still the same music and lyrics in the package...

I've got a question about Roger Martinez from Vengeance Rising.
Lots of Christian metal heads still listen to that, even though he hasn't been a Christian for years.
How is listening to Christian metal from someone no longer a Christian a green light, but listening to Christian metal from someone who faked being a Christian (but is supposedly a Christian now) a red light?

Is it because Roger was "verified" as a Christian for those releases, but Tim wasn't for his?
If time frame matters and someone is anti-pot, is 2015 Orationem ok but 2016 Orationem isn't? (even though Orationem lyrics never compromised with any album)

Sorry - I really don't understand the logic here.
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For the record, I want to say I fully respect the right for any of you guys to listen to or not listen to anything for whatever reason.
...likewise, I hope I'm given the same respect for calling the behavior of my brothers as unusual? unexplained? when, to me, it looks unusual/unexplained.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Mysterious Gamer Dude on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:07 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:Unless I haven't been clear, I don't see anything wrong with non-Christians producing Christian music. I know we all like to think that Christian music is a ministry of some sort, and we assume Christian music ONLY comes from Christians, but at its core, its no different than secular music in regards to the business aspects of it. All music is produced to be appealing to a market crowd, sold is for entertainment purposes and there is intention to gain a profit. (sure, there might be a stipulation where proceeds go towards something nice, but the "business model" is still there)

Excluding product and price differences, there is no alternate experience between shopping at a CD store owned by a Christian vs. one owned by an atheist. So why does what the producer believes or doesn't believe matter? Its still the same music and lyrics in the package...

I've got a question about Roger Martinez from Vengeance Rising.
Lots of Christian metal heads still listen to that, even though he hasn't been a Christian for years.
How is listening to Christian metal from someone no longer a Christian a green light, but listening to Christian metal from someone who faked being a Christian (but is supposedly a Christian now) a red light?

Is it because Roger was "verified" as a Christian for those releases, but Tim wasn't for his?
If time frame matters and someone is anti-pot, is 2015 Orationem ok but 2016 Orationem isn't? (even though Orationem lyrics never compromised with any album)

Sorry - I really don't understand the logic here.
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For the record, I want to say I fully respect the right for any of you guys to listen to or not listen to anything for whatever reason.
...likewise, I hope I'm given the same respect for calling the behavior of my brothers as unusual? unexplained? when, to me, it looks unusual/unexplained.

I understand where your coming from. A good example would be The Famine, they aren't labeled a "Christian" band, but their lyrics are definitely Christian influenced or at least have a positive message. And I still enjoy their music quite a bit actually. 

But me personally, I prefer to know an artist's or band's motive before I listen to their music. If their motive truly is to use their lyrics to promote a positive message and their content is good musically, then I'm all for them. But like I said in my previous post, I am indeed going to wait a little while, that way I'll be able to better determine if their motive is indeed a positive one.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by exo on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:48 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
exo wrote:So deceptive practices in the name of PR is not actually deception?  You're reaching on this one, brother, and you're not Stretch Armstrong.....

Omission of information isn't always deception. Have you told your boss at work the most horrible thing you've ever done? I haven't... and I wouldn't consider it dishonest because I haven't. They don't need to know that.

There's different types of honesty. If volunteering information hurts yourself or others, and keeping said information doesn't directly hurt anyone, then it's a non-issue.


Apples to orange, bro.

In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

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"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by L8T on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:05 am

I find this thread fascinating......Long time ago, before TL went to jail, I said "I have no dog in this fight" cause I wasn't a fan of his band or his music.....Someone here said that that was wrong, which I have taken under consideration.

Art is SUCH a Personal thing.  We are effected by artists personalities ALL the time, Not just their professions of faith or world life views.

IMO, it's Very Okay to be turned off by the behaviors, choices, actions, etc... of ANY artists.  Conversely, many times we "like" artists and their product because we have some type of connection to them.  It doesn't have to make sense.  In my world life view we were created as relational beings.  What people do and say does effect my response to them.  And, what I do and say effects how people feel about me.

This thread reminds me of the threads that were going on, here, when Michael Vick got out of prison.  Lots of different opinions, which is normal  Razz

I think TL paid a certain price for his crimes.  I said, earlier, that I am praying for his ex wife and kids.

Oh well, I am enjoying the discussion.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by ThomasEversole on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:31 pm

exo wrote:
Apples to orange, bro.

In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I do see what you're saying, chief. The thing is, there's no evidence that he is truly reformed, or isn't... so all we have is speculation. Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance?
...or do we put some good faith in that he has changed, and risk being duped?

For me, the choice between the two is extremely easy. Its good for the soul to trust people's intentions. If they prove to be untrustworthy again, that's their fault for regressing - not our fault for trusting.

If everyone doubted me after I failed to stop drinking all the attempts I tried, I wouldn't be here as I am now.
In fact, I may not even be here at all.

L8T wrote:
IMO, it's Very Okay to be turned off by the behaviors, choices, actions, etc... of ANY artists.

I agree. There are examples I can think of where X action effects my perception of Y, though this example isn't one of them. His ruse and crime wasn't done to piss this Tom Eversole guy off, so I'm not personally butthurt over it. He was screwed up in the head (hard drugs didn't help) and sinners sin. I understand it because I've been there, and have no qualms overlooking something like that, especially since this was YEARS AGO.

Now if this was yesterday, I'd be skeptical too, but requiring him to pay penance before I even think about giving him a chance? Not only would I be a hypocrite because of the parallels to my own story, but these types of reservations only corrode the vessel that contains them.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:17 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:
exo wrote:
Apples to orange, bro.

In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I do see what you're saying, chief.  The thing is, there's no evidence that he is truly reformed, or isn't... so all we have is speculation.  Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance?
...or do we put some good faith in that he has changed, and risk being duped?

For me, the choice between the two is extremely easy.  Its good for the soul to trust people's intentions.  If they prove to be untrustworthy again, that's their fault for regressing - not our fault for trusting.  

If everyone doubted me after I failed to stop drinking all the attempts I tried, I wouldn't be here as I am now.
In fact, I may not even be here at all.

L8T wrote:
IMO, it's Very Okay to be turned off by the behaviors, choices, actions, etc... of ANY artists.

I agree.  There are examples I can think of where X action effects my perception of Y, though this example isn't one of them.  His ruse and crime wasn't done to piss this Tom Eversole guy off, so I'm not personally butthurt over it.  He was screwed up in the head (hard drugs didn't help) and sinners sin.  I understand it because I've been there, and have no qualms overlooking something like that, especially since this was YEARS AGO.

Now if this was yesterday, I'd be skeptical too, but requiring him to pay penance before I even think about giving him a chance?  Not only would I be a hypocrite because of the parallels to my own story, but these types of reservations only corrode the vessel that contains them.

Great post and a big Amen! to this part "Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance?"

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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by messiaen77 on Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:26 pm

I guess this were it come down for me:  we've all done really stupid things in our lives, things I'm sure we would love to have a chance to go back and not do.  We've all sinned.  We've all misrepresented Christ.  We've all let people down.  Our infractions may differ from Tim's in scale and in scope, but we've all been in the position where we want people to trust us again.  I guess that's what this really seems like to me.  People here want assurances that Tim is changed.  I'm not sure you can truly know that.  You can see the way he acts, you can hear and read the words he says, but in the end, we can never really know the motivations--the heart--of anyone other than ourselves.  I'm not here to say "so we all need to forgive Tim and go buy all his music," but I am here to say that those of us who call ourselves followers of Christ need to forgive him.  Whether or not that means you will buy his music is a totally different matter.  We don't get to continue to hold people accountable for their sins while celebrating that we have been set free from ours.  Besides, Tim didn't hurt any of us.  Oh yeah, I know people feel like they've been tricked and lied to for the sake of selling music, but were you really?  Did you get music you enjoyed?  Did anything about that music change when you found out Tim paid someone to kill his wife?  No, you just changed the narrative of who it was that wrote that music.  Any truth you heard in those lyrics is the same.  Truth doesn't change just because the person who spoke it lied about believing it.  I know I'm different from some of you in that I can separate the art from the artist.  But this is what I think about this whole situation.  You feel free to think differently though.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Markus1987 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:00 am

messiaen77 wrote:I guess this were it come down for me:  we've all done really stupid things in our lives, things I'm sure we would love to have a chance to go back and not do.  We've all sinned.  We've all misrepresented Christ.  We've all let people down.  Our infractions may differ from Tim's in scale and in scope, but we've all been in the position where we want people to trust us again.  I guess that's what this really seems like to me.  People here want assurances that Tim is changed.  I'm not sure you can truly know that.  You can see the way he acts, you can hear and read the words he says, but in the end, we can never really know the motivations--the heart--of anyone other than ourselves.  I'm not here to say "so we all need to forgive Tim and go buy all his music," but I am here to say that those of us who call ourselves followers of Christ need to forgive him.  Whether or not that means you will buy his music is a totally different matter.  We don't get to continue to hold people accountable for their sins while celebrating that we have been set free from ours.  Besides, Tim didn't hurt any of us.  Oh yeah, I know people feel like they've been tricked and lied to for the sake of selling music, but were you really?  Did you get music you enjoyed?  Did anything about that music change when you found out Tim paid someone to kill his wife?  No, you just changed the narrative of who it was that wrote that music.  Any truth you heard in those lyrics is the same.  Truth doesn't change just because the person who spoke it lied about believing it.  I know I'm different from some of you in that I can separate the art from the artist.  But this is what I think about this whole situation.  You feel free to think differently though.

Well said, bro Smile .
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:34 am

Why do I have the feeling that (almost) everyone in this thread is thinking the same, but somehow majorly get their signals crossed? Maybe a difference in emphasis.
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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by jaydeecrawson on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:22 pm

who needs As I Lay Dying when you got King Dude?

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Re: Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

Post by Mysterious Gamer Dude on Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:24 pm

Andreas89 wrote:Why do I have the feeling that (almost) everyone in this thread is thinking the same, but somehow majorly get their signals crossed? Maybe a difference in emphasis.

I had the same feeling, but I couldn't quite place what exactly it was until I read your comment.
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