Feeling God's Presence

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:25 am

I said my peace...

There is no point to keep posting my same opinion over and over.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:27 am

Don't mind me...This is just another long winded post that says absolutely nothing new.

You can leave this thread now if you like, I'll leave that up to you to decide.

----------

Two good tunes, when put together, tell a pretty cool story.




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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by bjorn agin on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:19 am

Music at the beginning of a church service ushers in the presence of the people.. who get there 15 minutes after the start of service.  Laughing

#iamoneofthosepeople #gettingkidsreadyforchurchsfun
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:51 am

NoOneIsHere wrote:I said my peace...

There is no point to keep posting my same opinion over and over.

You said your peace? You don't really mean that do you?

Where is the "peace" in what you have said?

All you are doing is complaining about what I'm doing,

...and then you blame me for going round and round and not saying anything new??

You have said your "piece", but I don't think you've really said your "peace".

Again I ask...When are you gonna say something new?

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:05 am

Mortal wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:I said my peace...

There is no point to keep posting my same opinion over and over.

You said your peace? You don't really mean that do you?

Where is the "peace" in what you have said?

All you are doing is complaining about what I'm doing,

...and then you blame me for going round and round and not saying anything new??

You have said your "piece", but I don't think you've really said your "peace".

Again I ask...When are you gonna say something new?


Get over yourself, mortal..

it was a typo..happens on cell phones.


As for my opinion, I posted it early on in the thread.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:01 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
One thing, in regards to genres such as black and death metal....
I really fail to to see the value of these styles as " worship. " Mainly because for the most part you don't know what they are even saying. I would think that knowing what is being expressed is fairly important to the idea of worship to God. How can I say " amen " to what is being said when I don't know what is expressed in to song ?
 

Just because you can't doesn't mean nobody can. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Grindboy on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:39 pm

Mortal wrote:Music does NOT usher in the presence of God.  Scripture does.

Why are we treating Scripture like it can't do it's job and putting it last?

Why must we have music to "get us in the mood"?

Think about that for a minute.

Why do we need music to "get us in the mood" before we can get intimate with God?

If you, the reader, are married, would you treat your spouse like this?

Would you say to your spouse "I gotta have a good song that gets me in the mood before I can get intimate with you"?

I certainly hope not.

So...why do we do that with God?

????  Scripture ushers in the presence of God?  Churches are treating Scripture like it can't "do it's job" if they sing before a sermon?  What church says you have to start with music to "get in the mood?" 

I don't know anything about you or your background, maybe you've been to some messed up churches.  Every church IS imperfect and, humanly, led by imperfect humans.  I don't think that churches are the problem, that they forget about people's problems, or that they're saying/teaching/suggesting/insinuating many of the things you prescribe -- certainly not churches/pastors that I've been a part of or around.  Perhaps there are some and maybe you've had a particular run of bad luck with them?  I'll say, though, that I'd be every bit as wary of a church that says Scripture ushers in the presence of God as one that says that music ushers in the presence of God.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:40 pm

Grindboy wrote:
Mortal wrote:Music does NOT usher in the presence of God.  Scripture does.

Why are we treating Scripture like it can't do it's job and putting it last?

Why must we have music to "get us in the mood"?

Think about that for a minute.

Why do we need music to "get us in the mood" before we can get intimate with God?

If you, the reader, are married, would you treat your spouse like this?

Would you say to your spouse "I gotta have a good song that gets me in the mood before I can get intimate with you"?

I certainly hope not.

So...why do we do that with God?

????  Scripture ushers in the presence of God?  Churches are treating Scripture like it can't "do it's job" if they sing before a sermon?  What church says you have to start with music to "get in the mood?" 

I don't know anything about you or your background, maybe you've been to some messed up churches.  Every church IS imperfect and, humanly, led by imperfect humans.  I don't think that churches are the problem, that they forget about people's problems, or that they're saying/teaching/suggesting/insinuating many of the things you prescribe -- certainly not churches/pastors that I've been a part of or around.  Perhaps there are some and maybe you've had a particular run of bad luck with them?  I'll say, though, that I'd be every bit as wary of a church that says Scripture ushers in the presence of God as one that says that music ushers in the presence of God.

Really? If that's the case, perhaps your view of Scripture is not what it should be.

Everything we need to know about God is right there in Scripture.

Scripture tells us WHO God is. It tells us about His emotions and His desires.

Scripture tells us HOW God operates. It tells us about His plans....WHY/HOW/WHEN...etc. etc...

Christ even told us "Take heed: Behold, I have foretold you all things."

Now tell me, Grindboy, WHERE do we learn about all this stuff?

Where do we truly learn about God?

Where is God truly revealed?

If you don't think the answer is Scripture, then your views of Scripture are not really what they should be.

Scripture is the ONLY thing that truly reveals God for EXACTLY who He is.

Scripture should always be our starting point.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:51 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
Mortal wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:I said my peace...

There is no point to keep posting my same opinion over and over.

You said your peace? You don't really mean that do you?

Where is the "peace" in what you have said?

All you are doing is complaining about what I'm doing,

...and then you blame me for going round and round and not saying anything new??

You have said your "piece", but I don't think you've really said your "peace".

Again I ask...When are you gonna say something new?


Get over yourself, mortal..

it was a typo..happens on cell phones.


As for my opinion, I posted it early on in the thread.

I suppose this is more of your "peace"?

I'm afraid the "typo", or whatever, doesn't have anything at all to do with your phone.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:57 pm

I think we're all getting hung up on semantics. Scripture is where we get our knowledge of God, but it doesn't do any ushering on its own. It equips Christians, but it's our faith that ushers God's revealed presence. I think understand what Mortal is saying, we need a certain understanding of the word and what we are singing about to worship. Correct. But leave a Bible on a pew and it won't do anything. Neither will a strict reading move any hearts without a people who believe in it. That's what I'm getting from Grindboy, which is also correct. 
Hope that helps. Keep it civil, bros!  Thumbs up
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:06 pm

Friday13th wrote:I think we're all getting hung up on semantics. Scripture is where we get our knowledge of God, but it doesn't do any ushering on its own. It equips Christians, but it's our faith that ushers God's revealed presence. I think understand what Mortal is saying, we need a certain understanding of the word and what we are singing about to worship. Correct. But leave a Bible on a pew and it won't do anything. Neither will a strict reading move any hearts without a people who believe in it. That's what I'm getting from Grindboy, which is also correct. 
Hope that helps. Keep it civil, bros!  Thumbs up

Thank you for stepping it up, Friday13th.

Thank you for getting on with the subject instead of getting caught up in all the "Oh, blah blah blah, Mortal...Get over yourself...blah blah blah...It's just the same ol' thing with you...blah blah blah....round and round....blah blah blah...Nothing new....blah blah blah".

Seriously....I mean that....Thank you  Thumbs up

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:25 pm

Here is a good Pastor Bob video that I thought would be relevant here. The subject of the video is "What does it take to become a Pastor?".

I posted this video earlier, in another thread...and I knew that we'd probably have to come back to it again.

He makes a great point saying that IF one has the calling, nothing can really stop them from doing what they do.

Now think about this, whoever is reading....What kind of example are YOU setting?


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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:32 pm

And here is a Mister Rogers song. Haha!

Why post a Mister Rogers song?

Am I trying to talk down to people?

Nope!


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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:30 pm

bjorn agin wrote:Music at the beginning of a church service ushers in the presence of the people.. who get there 15 minutes after the start of service.  Laughing

#iamoneofthosepeople #gettingkidsreadyforchurchsfun

Haha! Yep....I suppose kids can be a hassle on Sunday mornings. Some kids are just not morning kids...I understand that. I'm not really much of a morning person either sometimes.

I imagine it would be hard fighting with kids on Sunday morning to get ready for church.

I'm not so sure that pushing them out of their comfort zone is necessarily "training up a child in the ways of the Lord".

I don't mean to say that you are doing this....I'm just saying.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:09 pm

Heart-warming video by Mr. Rogers, Mortal.  I love you In fact, if you broaden his lesson on the alphabet to the word of God, it's actually very true and fitting. 

Anyways, time to listen to some brutal Christian death metal  Razz
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:55 pm

Friday13th wrote:Heart-warming video by Mr. Rogers, Mortal.  I love you In fact, if you broaden his lesson on the alphabet to the word of God, it's actually very true and fitting. 

Anyways, time to listen to some brutal Christian death metal  Razz

If you know of any death metal bands that sound like Mister Rogers, send it my way.  Very Happy

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Grindboy on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:21 pm

Mortal wrote:
Grindboy wrote:
Mortal wrote:Music does NOT usher in the presence of God.  Scripture does.

Why are we treating Scripture like it can't do it's job and putting it last?

Why must we have music to "get us in the mood"?

Think about that for a minute.

Why do we need music to "get us in the mood" before we can get intimate with God?

If you, the reader, are married, would you treat your spouse like this?

Would you say to your spouse "I gotta have a good song that gets me in the mood before I can get intimate with you"?

I certainly hope not.

So...why do we do that with God?

????  Scripture ushers in the presence of God?  Churches are treating Scripture like it can't "do it's job" if they sing before a sermon?  What church says you have to start with music to "get in the mood?" 

I don't know anything about you or your background, maybe you've been to some messed up churches.  Every church IS imperfect and, humanly, led by imperfect humans.  I don't think that churches are the problem, that they forget about people's problems, or that they're saying/teaching/suggesting/insinuating many of the things you prescribe -- certainly not churches/pastors that I've been a part of or around.  Perhaps there are some and maybe you've had a particular run of bad luck with them?  I'll say, though, that I'd be every bit as wary of a church that says Scripture ushers in the presence of God as one that says that music ushers in the presence of God.

Really? If that's the case, perhaps your view of Scripture is not what it should be.

Everything we need to know about God is right there in Scripture.

Scripture tells us WHO God is. It tells us about His emotions and His desires.

Scripture tells us HOW God operates. It tells us about His plans....WHY/HOW/WHEN...etc. etc...

Christ even told us "Take heed: Behold, I have foretold you all things."

Now tell me, Grindboy, WHERE do we learn about all this stuff?

Where do we truly learn about God?

Where is God truly revealed?

If you don't think the answer is Scripture, then your views of Scripture are not really what they should be.

Scripture is the ONLY thing that truly reveals God for EXACTLY who He is.

Scripture should always be our starting point.

Dude, all I said about Scripture is that it does not "usher in the presence of God."  Whatever ideas you're trying to cram into my post or think you're arguing against are completely foreign and illegitimate to anything I said.

I appreciate your heart and attempt, Friday.  I certainly don't believe I've been uncivil.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:52 pm

Grindboy wrote:Dude, all I said about Scripture is that it does not "usher in the presence of God."  Whatever ideas you're trying to cram into my post or think you're arguing against are completely foreign and illegitimate to anything I said.

I appreciate your heart and attempt, Friday.  I certainly don't believe I've been uncivil.

So you're upset because I wasn't listening to what you were saying?

I think maybe you weren't listening to what I was saying, and that's maybe why you responded the way you did.

When I said..."Music does NOT usher in the presence of God.  Scripture does."...

I was saying that Scripture ushers in His presence, in a completely different way, by making us aware of His presence.

Music can't really do that.

If music wants to do that, it must depend on the Scriptures.

So why not just go to the Scriptures to start with?

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:10 am

Friday13th wrote:Heart-warming video by Mr. Rogers, Mortal.  I love you In fact, if you broaden his lesson on the alphabet to the word of God, it's actually very true and fitting. 

Anyways, time to listen to some brutal Christian death metal  Razz

That's true about the alphabet lesson. Glad to see someone else picked up on that.

Mister Rogers sure does like feeding his fish too Wink

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:54 am

Grindboy wrote:Churches are treating Scripture like it can't "do it's job" if they sing before a sermon?

Many churches are putting too much emphasis on music. That was my point.

When churches put too much emphasis and trust in music to transport them into the presence of God...How exactly would you describe it?

Grindboy wrote:What church says you have to start with music to "get in the mood?"

Any church that puts way too much emphasis on music.

Grindboy wrote:I don't know anything about you or your background, maybe you've been to some messed up churches.  Every church IS imperfect and, humanly, led by imperfect humans.

Yep...I've been to some really messed up churches, but I have also been to some really good ones.

I know there are imperfect people there...but I don't agree with being led by an imperfect human.

We should be led by God...not imperfect humans.

I hope you understand what I mean when I say that.

Grindboy wrote:I don't think that churches are the problem, that they forget about people's problems, or that they're saying/teaching/suggesting/insinuating many of the things you prescribe

Well....why are so many people leaving church?

Grindboy wrote:Perhaps there are some and maybe you've had a particular run of bad luck with them?

Yep....and many other people have too.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Grindboy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:32 am

I'm not interested in following various rabbit trails any number of directions off point.

My point is this -- God's presence does not need to be ushered in.  It is present.  Psalm 139.

I wish people were less eager to criticize churches and church leaders.  There are many different styles and ideas and personalities reflected in the diversity of churches.  I wish this reality, and the people who give their lives to following God's call into leading them, were met with more support and prayer and encouragement.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:00 pm

Grindboy wrote:I wish people were less eager to criticize churches and church leaders.

There is no "eagerness" on my part to criticize....just to criticize.

Grindboy wrote:There are many different styles and ideas and personalities reflected in the diversity of churches.

Our different styles/ideas/personalities don't need to be so prominent in church. That is NOT what church is about.

Our different styles/ideas/personalities are what needs to be staying at home on the shelf... instead of the Bible.

I think they need to switch places.

Grindboy wrote:I wish this reality, and the people who give their lives to following God's call into leading them, were met with more support and prayer and encouragement.

One needs to be careful HOW they encourage others. That's my whole point.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by sentient 6 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:34 pm

LemonMouse wrote:
 

Just because you can't doesn't mean nobody can. Rolling Eyes

 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Yeah, I know Paul is talking about language and tongues here. But I should not need the " gift of interpretation of music genres " to understand the Christian messages in a songs. Wink
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:10 pm

sentient 6 wrote:I should not need the " gift of interpretation of music genres " to understand the Christian messages in a songs. 

But "brother so and so" has the "gift of Cookie Monster vocals".

Neutral


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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:38 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
LemonMouse wrote:
 

Just because you can't doesn't mean nobody can. Rolling Eyes

 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Yeah, I know Paul is talking about language and tongues here. But I should not need the " gift of interpretation of music genres " to understand the Christian messages in a songs. Wink

So I guess since you don't understand Swahili that means Swahili doesn't have any value in worship.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:39 pm

LemonMouse wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
LemonMouse wrote:
 

Just because you can't doesn't mean nobody can. Rolling Eyes

 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


Yeah, I know Paul is talking about language and tongues here. But I should not need the " gift of interpretation of music genres " to understand the Christian messages in a songs. Wink

So I guess since you don't understand Swahili that means Swahili doesn't have any value in worship.

Rolf 1 I'm not sure why I'm laughing, but I am. Did you really mean to say that?

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by sentient 6 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:36 pm

LemonMouse wrote:
So I guess since you don't understand Swahili that means Swahili doesn't have any value in worship.

Do you really think its fair to compare a language with a extreme vocal style ? Anyway, I guess if a didn't understand that language, the message would get lost on me. It certainly would have value for the person who understands Swahili.

Heres the thing. language has meaning for those who understand that language. But some genres of music are created for reasons other than bringing light and clarity. Death and black metal are forms of music that in their origins wish to convey things like - evil, choas, darkness and rebellion. The priority was not creating a clear understandable messages as much as it was creating atomsphere and the need to step up the level of agression. Contrast with the priorities of the Christian faith were the message is the highest and only priority. Clear, understandable messages that will engage our hearts and our minds.
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:54 pm

What a gift  Rolling Eyes









Last edited by Mortal on Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:55 pm

Mortal wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Mortal wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:I said my peace...

There is no point to keep posting my same opinion over and over.

You said your peace? You don't really mean that do you?

Where is the "peace" in what you have said?

All you are doing is complaining about what I'm doing,

...and then you blame me for going round and round and not saying anything new??

You have said your "piece", but I don't think you've really said your "peace".

Again I ask...When are you gonna say something new?


Get over yourself, mortal..

it was a typo..happens on cell phones.


As for my opinion, I posted it early on in the thread.

I suppose this is more of your "peace"?


I'm afraid the "typo", or whatever, doesn't have anything at all to do with your phone.


"I'm afraid the "typo", or whatever, doesn't have anything at all to do with your phone."?

Really? 
Do you even understand half of what you say?


You are away that they make these things called smartphones that allow you to interact on the internet just like a home computer, right? And you are aware that auto correct replaces misspelled words with what it thinks you meant, so if you spell peece or pice or something like that it will pick either piece or pies or peace..etc etc...


Anyway,  have fun believing whatever you want to believe...

and reply however you want, I won't see it anyway

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:58 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
Mortal wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Mortal wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:I said my peace...

There is no point to keep posting my same opinion over and over.

You said your peace? You don't really mean that do you?

Where is the "peace" in what you have said?

All you are doing is complaining about what I'm doing,

...and then you blame me for going round and round and not saying anything new??

You have said your "piece", but I don't think you've really said your "peace".

Again I ask...When are you gonna say something new?


Get over yourself, mortal..

it was a typo..happens on cell phones.


As for my opinion, I posted it early on in the thread.

I suppose this is more of your "peace"?


I'm afraid the "typo", or whatever, doesn't have anything at all to do with your phone.


"I'm afraid the "typo", or whatever, doesn't have anything at all to do with your phone."?

Really? 
Do you even understand half of what you say?


You are away that they make these things called smartphones that allow you to interact on the internet just like a home computer, right? And you are aware that auto correct replaces misspelled words with what it thinks you meant, so if you spell peece or pice or something like that it will pick either piece or pies or peace..etc etc...


Anyway,  have fun believing whatever you want to believe...

and reply however you want, I won't see it anyway

If you did mean to type "peace" instead of "piece", it's no big deal.

It's a common misconception.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:29 pm

Neutral


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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:13 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
LemonMouse wrote:
So I guess since you don't understand Swahili that means Swahili doesn't have any value in worship.

Do you really think its fair to compare a language with a extreme vocal style ? Anyway, I guess if a didn't understand that language, the message would get lost on me. It certainly would have value for the person who understands Swahili.

Heres the thing. language has meaning for those who understand that language. But some genres of music are created for reasons other than bringing light and clarity. Death and black metal are forms of music that in their origins wish to convey things like - evil, choas, darkness and rebellion. The priority was not creating a clear understandable messages as much as it was creating atomsphere and the need to step up the level of agression. Contrast with the priorities of the Christian faith were the message is the highest and only priority. Clear, understandable messages that will engage our hearts and our minds.


You said "I really fail to to see the value of these styles as " worship. " Mainly because for the most part you don't know what they are even saying. I would think that knowing what is being expressed is fairly important to the idea of worship to God. How can I say " amen " to what is being said when I don't know what is expressed in to song ?"

Extreme vocals have no value as worship, because you can't understand what is said. You can't understand what is said in a foreign language. Using this argument, any language other than English has no value in worship.

"It certainly would have value for the person who understands Swahili." That's my point. Just because you can't understand doesn't diminish the overall value of the music. It diminishes the value for you in particular, but not overall.

I have difficulty understanding any vocals, be it singing, screaming, growling, shrieking, shouting, chanting - any - if I don't have the lyrics in front of me (on first hearing a song, anyway). A few scattered words and phrases, and choruses are easier because of the repetition, but that's it. So should I say "I really fail to see the value of music as worship. Mainly because for the most part you don't know what they are even saying"? No, that, demeaning the intrinsic value of a thing because of my own personal limitations, would be silly.

And concerning the origins of black and death metal: One could condemn all music using the "well don't you know where this came from?" argument. A Christian hip-hopper (or rapper - I read this last year and hip-hop/rap really isn't my forte) pointed out, when asked why he was involved with that style of music, what with the focus on sex and murder and overall evil on the secular side of the genre, that Genesis says a grandson of Cain was the "father of all those who play the harp and flute." This is the very first mention of human use of music, and it originated from Cain's grandson. He asked, "What do you think the music was about? Would it have glorified God, or glorified fallen man?"

And then the second half of your second paragraph: Again, we've come round about to the same thing: Just because the vocals aren't clear to you doesn't mean it isn't to everyone. Rolling Eyes And if the priority of Christianity is clarity, why use music at all? The music itself is a distraction from the truth of the lyrics. Just have someone standing up speaking.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:06 pm

Totally agree with LemonMouse on this one. The only reason I wouldn't like most extreme metal worship is because the emotional feeling I get is one of intense turmoil or struggle, which in the context of effective songwriting limits the pallet for me. Of course a lot of Psalms display those kind of feelings, or like Job saying "though He slay me" Stuff like that would fit very well I think. You form the message in a language the recipients can understand. Old ladies understand hymns though they used to be drinking songs. Death metal fans understand death metal though it used to be used for evil.
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:38 pm

My question is:...Why do we have to put styles and labels onto our worship?

I'm not talking about those who express their feelings of dislike for these type of vocals, I'm talking about those who are all into this "use your gifts/talents for His Glory" thing.

Let me explain what I mean...

It is good for one to use their gifts/talents for His Glory,

but when did this type of thing become a gift??

We have fallen so far that we are just taking anything and trying to make gifts out of them.

And then we want to bring it into the church and share it with others....spread it around....let everyone get into it and recognize these gifts.

Wow...that's really special, isn't it?

Bottom line....It's just silly.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:02 pm

You don't have to share any gift if you don't want to, and no one should be subjected to other's gifts if they don't want to. What are you saying though, Mortal? I'm guessing you're saying only gifts listed in the Bible like gifts of the spirit are gifts. Like tongues and prophecy? Why couldn't musical talent be a gift from God to use for His glory? Should we use it for evil and selfish desires instead? Maybe some churches make a bigger deal about the one possessing these gifts rather than the Giver. I would agree that much. If so, I'd just say we need to distinguish between the abuse of using gifts from the proper use.
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:07 pm

Mortal wrote:What a gift  Rolling Eyes








This is what I'm talking about.

Why do we act like extreme vocals are some kind of gift that should be used for His Glory?

Did you see the kid in the first video? He looks like he's going to hurt himself.

Did you see the attitude of the guy in the second video? Sadly, that is the attitude of many "Christians" who feel that their extreme vocals are some sort of gift. As soon as someone expresses dislike for these type of things being in the church, their attitude comes out.

Yeah...it's sad  Crying or Very sad

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:13 pm

Friday13th wrote:You don't have to share any gift if you don't want to, and no one should be subjected to other's gifts if they don't want to. What are you saying though, Mortal? I'm guessing you're saying only gifts listed in the Bible like gifts of the spirit are gifts. Like tongues and prophecy? Why couldn't musical talent be a gift from God to use for His glory? Should we use it for evil and selfish desires instead? Maybe some churches make a bigger deal about the one possessing these gifts rather than the Giver. I would agree that much. If so, I'd just say we need to distinguish between the abuse of using gifts from the proper use.

I'm simply saying that there is a bigger gift...a much more important gift that people are not even recognizing because they are too busy focusing on things such as this.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:23 pm

These are all examples of abusing a gift, Mortal. It is sad, but it doesn't have to be this way. Say the stereotype is true (which I don't doubt honestly) and most screamo or gutteral vocal musicians are under the age of 30 and completely immature. The second you criticize their style, they lash out all defensive and curse you for being judgmental. Does the ability to scream make them do it, or does their personality or a weakness of easily-triggered aggression naturally lead them to like extreme music? It's definitely the latter. You really can't imagine a humble person who uses the extreme vocal talent in a positive way?

You might not think it's much, and the world doesn't either honestly. But for some of these kids it's all they've got, and God prefers the mite of the widow to the surplus of the rich.

I assume you mean the gift of Jesus is being ignored? Okay...again, if you abuse your other gifts then yeah, they become idols.
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:41 pm

Friday13th wrote:You really can't imagine a humble person who uses the extreme vocal talent in a positive way?

If I were to say "No", would that make me "not humble"?

I think the positive thing to do would be to help the younger kids, not pamper their aggressions.

If extreme vocals is all they got, why not offer them something else?

I understand that the aggression in extreme vocals is to "sound the trumpet" in a way...correct?

How can we sound the sound the trumpet, with a familiar call, when it is so distorted and full of aggression?

Don't we realize that "sounding the trumpet" is a gift too??

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:21 pm

LemonMouse wrote:
You said "I really fail to to see the value of these styles as " worship. " Mainly because for the most part you don't know what they are even saying. I would think that knowing what is being expressed is fairly important to the idea of worship to God. How can I say " amen " to what is being said when I don't know what is expressed in to song ?"

Extreme vocals have no value as worship, because you can't understand what is said. You can't understand what is said in a foreign language. Using this argument, any language other than English has no value in worship.

"It certainly would have value for the person who understands Swahili." That's my point. Just because you can't understand doesn't diminish the overall value of the music. It diminishes the value for you in particular, but not overall.

I have difficulty understanding any vocals, be it singing, screaming, growling, shrieking, shouting, chanting - any - if I don't have the lyrics in front of me (on first hearing a song, anyway). A few scattered words and phrases, and choruses are easier because of the repetition, but that's it. So should I say "I really fail to see the value of music as worship. Mainly because for the most part you don't know what they are even saying"? No, that, demeaning the intrinsic value of a thing because of my own personal limitations, would be silly.

And concerning the origins of black and death metal: One could condemn all music using the "well don't you know where this came from?" argument. A Christian hip-hopper (or rapper - I read this last year and hip-hop/rap really isn't my forte) pointed out, when asked why he was involved with that style of music, what with the focus on sex and murder and overall evil on the secular side of the genre, that Genesis says a grandson of Cain was the "father of all those who play the harp and flute." This is the very first mention of human use of music, and it originated from Cain's grandson. He asked, "What do you think the music was about? Would it have glorified God, or glorified fallen man?"

And then the second half of your second paragraph: Again, we've come round about to the same thing: Just because the vocals aren't clear to you doesn't mean it isn't to everyone. Rolling Eyes And if the priority of Christianity is clarity, why use music at all? The music itself is a distraction from the truth of the lyrics. Just have someone standing up speaking.


Fair enough...you make some valid points. I'll just say this and we can leave this aspect of the topic alone. I guess if a artist is expressing worship to God in that way, that is for them to contemplate the appropriateness of doing so. But for the listener, the message will be lost on them. let me just say that I am not suggesting that Christians shouldn't listen to death/black music. But if I want encouragement in my faith or if I want to be edified by music, this is not what I reach for.
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Fri May 01, 2015 12:52 am

Mortal wrote:
Friday13th wrote:You really can't imagine a humble person who uses the extreme vocal talent in a positive way?

If I were to say "No", would that make me "not humble"?

I think the positive thing to do would be to help the younger kids, not pamper their aggressions.

If extreme vocals is all they got, why not offer them something else?

I understand that the aggression in extreme vocals is to "sound the trumpet" in a way...correct?

How can we sound the sound the trumpet, with a familiar call, when it is so distorted and full of aggression?

Don't we realize that "sounding the trumpet" is a gift too??

I never implied anything about your humility, I was just wondering why it's seems so impossible to you. Again, I don't think it's necessarily an "aggression" though it is what that style of vocals is most commonly used to convey. It could convey an inner cry of desperation for God I assume. Even so, Jesus said be angry but do not sin as he tossed tables, scattered coins, and yelled at pharisees to stop making His Father's house a marketplace. 

Ugh...the trumpet sounding verse...read in context, it's about sending a clear message to whomever it may concern and not beating around the bush. The musical instruments are just an analogy saying be clear and if you mean it, just say it. Trumpets back then didn't all sound the same or all make this incredibly beautiful and uplifting music that everyone knew. It probably refers more to having the blower of the trumpet PUT SOME UMPH INTO IT since he had to be heard across vast distances. Back in the day trumpets sounded very primitive and atonal. Far from some pretty major key melody, westerners would find it strange and dissonant. And then came the pretty hymns...the same tunes that Johnny sang with his gang Friday night at the pub to get drunk and Watts adopted the very next Sunday. So when Amazing Grace was sung at church, it probably reminded Johnny about getting drunk with his friends  face palm If there were a certain sound that God established and consecrated for His praise...it's long gone and isn't anything you've ever heard, Mortal.

So, if you wanted to say the extreme vocals is a "sound of the trumpet" then yeah, metalheads will recognize the kid means business and listen to what he's saying. God definitely knows He's being worshiped, ain't no mistake there.
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Fri May 01, 2015 2:44 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Fair enough...you make some valid points. I'll just say this and we can leave this aspect of the topic alone. I guess if a artist is expressing worship to God in that way, that is for them to contemplate the appropriateness of doing so. But for the listener, the message will be lost on them. let me just say that I am not suggesting that Christians shouldn't listen to death/black music. But if I want encouragement in my faith or if I want to be edified by music, this is not what I reach for.

I'm tempted to say something about that fourth sentence....... But, aye, let it rest. Good to argue with you, s6. Smile

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Fri May 01, 2015 3:55 pm

Friday13th wrote:If there were a certain sound that God established and consecrated for His praise...it's long gone and isn't anything you've ever heard, Mortal.

Sure, I've heard it before.

It is a sound that is not heard with our flesh ears.

It's not "long gone". Other people can hear it too if they just know HOW to listen.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Friday13th on Fri May 01, 2015 4:09 pm

Um sure...that's basically what I'm saying (I think?) I don't know why you'd go after extreme vocals if you know it's not even about a sound heard by fleshly ears. It's about the heart of worship which comes in many forms. 

Funniest part about this whole argument is I don't even like extreme vocals. Like wow, it's not really any of my business Rolling Eyes
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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by Guest on Fri May 01, 2015 4:27 pm

Friday13th wrote:Um sure...that's basically what I'm saying (I think?) I don't know why you'd go after extreme vocals if you know it's not even about a sound heard by fleshly ears. It's about the heart of worship which comes in many forms. 

Funniest part about this whole argument is I don't even like extreme vocals. Like wow, it's not really any of my business Rolling Eyes

Yeah...I think we may agree.

Extreme vocals has already stepped in the ring, though. I don't really have to "go after" it, and I'm not really making a point to "go after" it.

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

Post by WildWorld on Sat May 02, 2015 10:47 pm

Ahem, well, getting back on topic:
Skillet: Hero, Forgiven
Liberty N Justice: Under Construction
Stryper: Soldiers Under Command, Makes Me Wanna Sing, Mercy Over Blame

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Re: Feeling God's Presence

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