Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

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Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Opeth3232 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:19 pm

I hope this isn't a redundant question or taboo please forgive me if it is I mean no disrespect to Jimmy or anyone on here or any other band members such as Eric Clayton. It been hard to figure out now day's where your favorite Christian metal singer's and band's are at with there faith anymore. Believer, Saviour Machine and Deliverance comes to mind, I grew up with these band's and the example and what they sang about influenced my life so much. Saviour Machine and Deliverance especially Saviour Machine's poetic qualities where and still are amazing and enriching to me. Jimmy Brown should be up there with Hetfield as far as being one of the kings of riffs and when it comes to his guitar skills and especially with song's like Solitude, Flesh And Blood and the whole Learn album smokes. Believer there first three album's where amazing too. But lately you can't get a bead on them anymore when it comes to interviews and new music it's almost as if they come off as closeted atheists that are to afraid to come out and just say the big A word. I'm not going to be bothered with it if they are although as a believer it does bother me that my heroes may or may not believe but I still love and appreciate what they still put out and what they've put out in the past I just feel like I've been lied to though. Eric Clayton for instance in a not so long ago interview was laughing at his past record's and it's subject matter with Saviour Machine and the swearing surprised me and I am not a prude by any means it was just shocking. Does anyone have any incite on where these  band members stand have they come out yet and just said I don't believe in God anymore? It just seems like there really is a real falling away taking place that the Bible talks about will happen not that I'm stating the above band's  and members have become apostate  it just seems like more and more band's that used to be a Christian band have walked away from there faith these day's. And what constitutes as idolatry in music? I'm asking because a long while ago Roger Martinez popped in and was accusing anyone who looked up to him and Vengeance Rising as Idol worshippers. Why does being a fan of any band make someone an idol worshipper? Thanks and sorry for the long questions.
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Frozen Fire on Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:58 am

Ultimately, I think you'd have to get the story from each individual man. They'd all have a different reason for where they are know. Too hard to go down this road with blanket statements about the why and the what and the how.

The threads I see that connect many of these stories for all young people in the faith (It's not a band thing ultimately. It's a societal thing).

1. Young and grew up in the faith - "Bold in what you've been told"
2. Criticized by both well meaning and misguided Christians not realizing people need loving relational discipleship, even when rebuked. Pointing a finger from a distance is not discipleship. 

When those two things meet the reality of living in the world, it's easy to drift, to wander, be pushed away or even shoved out the door. Any of these are possible.

As for bands and how that's different. We tend to treat and perceive Christian bands like Elders in the church. They should all stand on their own. They may be 20 years old but if they have bold lyrics we assume they are solid, mature in faith, battle tested and ready to take on the world, which is rarely if ever true. Roger's idolatry comment fits there. When they don't meet that expectation we're stunned. Yes. David took on Goliath with a bold faith but there was a lot of life to be lived yet, more mistakes made and more discipleship and growth that needed to happen. We want our David's to keep taking down Goliath's but when they don't and don't prove to be what we hoped they get pushed away. 

David in the end pursued the Lord through it all. Yet, many give up after because there was no loving rebuke. There was no relational discipleship, no going alongside. I'm not saying these things apply to the men and the bands you referred to but I see these things playing out in many cases. Our want of strong Christian lyrics and strong men behind them blinds us to the realities of the situation. We idolize the ideal and have a difficult time seeing the realities. Ask these men, 30 years on, people are still expecting perfections and standards to be met.

They may have fallen away. I don't know. Something happened to all of them even if they hold a true faith. Those are individual stories I feel we're unlike to hear because the last line of my previous paragraph.
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Sabbatharian on Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:30 am

I'm not aware of Eric or Jimmy leaving the faith, how they approach songwriting "ministry" surely has changed, and perhaps for the better. Far too much hero worship has gone on in Christian rock/metal, I certainly hope our faith is based on something a little more solid...
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Blake on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:17 am

Anything that takes precedence over God becomes an idol so it is 100% possible to let Christian bands become idols. We just have to make sure we dont forget whats important. Theres a whole topic on this going right now
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Temple of Blood on Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:01 am

I think the OP is right on the money.

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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by deathisgain on Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:09 am

One thing I think we have to understand is that the lyrics do not always represent ones faith. A lot of the stuff that came out in the late 80's/early 90's ministered to me, and still does. But I understand how some musicians feel as tho they can only write so many songs like that, and want to explore songs that touch on subject matter more than how many JPMs (Jesus Per Minute) lyrics you can get into a song. Obviously there should should be a Christian world view in those newer lyrics, that to a believer, should be evident.

Of some of the newer bands that seem to stick in the same vein as the earlier Christian Metal, I honestly find the lyrics tend to be generic or even just amateurish.

I am also not against a depressing or sad song, as some artists like to point out that the Psalms are full of. One thing I think that lacks tho, is yes there are some gut wrenching Psalms, but they usually point to God in the end, which some songs don't.

No man ultimately knows another man's heart, but there are signs that seem to indicate how some artist are thinking. Some times you can see this in their words in interviews and their actions. But unless you know them personally, it is a slippery slope to judge them, especially on just their lyrics and what we may think are right or wrong ones.
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Opeth3232 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:27 am

Frozen Fire wrote:Ultimately, I think you'd have to get the story from each individual man. They'd all have a different reason for where they are know. Too hard to go down this road with blanket statements about the why and the what and the how.

The threads I see that connect many of these stories for all young people in the faith (It's not a band thing ultimately. It's a societal thing).

1. Young and grew up in the faith - "Bold in what you've been told"
2. Criticized by both well meaning and misguided Christians not realizing people need loving relational discipleship, even when rebuked. Pointing a finger from a distance is not discipleship. 

When those two things meet the reality of living in the world, it's easy to drift, to wander, be pushed away or even shoved out the door. Any of these are possible.

As for bands and how that's different. We tend to treat and perceive Christian bands like Elders in the church. They should all stand on their own. They may be 20 years old but if they have bold lyrics we assume they are solid, mature in faith, battle tested and ready to take on the world, which is rarely if ever true. Roger's idolatry comment fits there. When they don't meet that expectation we're stunned. Yes. David took on Goliath with a bold faith but there was a lot of life to be lived yet, more mistakes made and more discipleship and growth that needed to happen. We want our David's to keep taking down Goliath's but when they don't and don't prove to be what we hoped they get pushed away. 

David in the end pursued the Lord through it all. Yet, many give up after because there was no loving rebuke. There was no relational discipleship, no going alongside. I'm not saying these things apply to the men and the bands you referred to but I see these things playing out in many cases. Our want of strong Christian lyrics and strong men behind them blinds us to the realities of the situation. We idolize the ideal and have a difficult time seeing the realities. Ask these men, 30 years on, people are still expecting perfections and standards to be met.

They may have fallen away. I don't know. Something happened to all of them even if they hold a true faith. Those are individual stories I feel we're unlike to hear because the last line of my previous paragraph.

Really good post thank you! When I look back on my teen years and Christian metal was just starting to get huge these people could do no wrong in my eyes and when they did do wrong it was devastating. But it was spiritual immaturity on my part and I can't even imagine the amount of pressure stuff like that kind of admiration puts on these performers. They are human beings just like we are but as a kid Jimmy Brown was a super hero to me Roger Martinez was Michael Sweet was these where my Christian heros. For me personally back then music became idolatrous its very easy to fall into that with music and we do have a tendency to put our heros on pedestals. I wouldn't want the responsibility of being a musician especially in the Christian world the pressure of being something other than human  has got be tremendous. Your whole life and words become subject to microscopic research and one faulty thing is found it could ruin everything. Its no wonder people do walk away. But does that make us as the fans just as responsible for that to because its us that expect these people to be super Christians. Anyway thank you for the response and hope all is well my friend
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Opeth3232 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:32 am

Sabbatharian wrote:I'm not aware of Eric or Jimmy leaving the faith, how they approach songwriting "ministry" surely has changed, and perhaps for the better. Far too much hero worship has gone on in Christian rock/metal, I certainly hope our faith is based on something a little more solid...

Totally agree. When I first posted my question I was reflecting on my own life as a young Christian and we do put these people on pedestals and hero worship is abundant lol but its sad it really is. They have to breath and be allowed to expand on there art
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Opeth3232 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:36 am

Blake wrote:Anything that takes precedence over God becomes an idol so it is 100% possible to let Christian bands become idols. We just have to make sure we dont forget whats important. Theres a whole topic on this going right now

Ok what about using Christian metal as a form of worship or bible study? What I mean is some songs are basically scripture put into song a lot of Mortification early stuff is like that so is Vengeance and Saving Grace there songs tend to be scripture put to music is it wrong to utilize these songs in bible study and such?
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Tombie on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:56 am

Opeth3232 wrote:
Blake wrote:Anything that takes precedence over God becomes an idol so it is 100% possible to let Christian bands become idols. We just have to make sure we dont forget whats important. Theres a whole topic on this going right now

Ok what about using Christian metal as a form of worship or bible study? What I mean is some songs are basically scripture put into song a lot of Mortification early stuff is like that so is Vengeance and Saving Grace there songs tend to be scripture put to music is it wrong to utilize these songs in bible study and such?
Anything that gets you closer to God (as long as it's Biblically sound) can't be a bad thing.
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Blake on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:14 am

Opeth3232 wrote:
Blake wrote:Anything that takes precedence over God becomes an idol so it is 100% possible to let Christian bands become idols. We just have to make sure we dont forget whats important. Theres a whole topic on this going right now

Ok what about using Christian metal as a form of worship or bible study? What I mean is some songs are basically scripture put into song a lot of Mortification early stuff is like that so is Vengeance and Saving Grace there songs tend to be scripture put to music is it wrong to utilize these songs in bible study and such?
Sure, I dont see any issue there since your using it to get closer to God. What I'm talking about is when we just are listening to Christian metal and getting so obsessed with each band that they begin to become idols.
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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by Kerrick on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:34 am

It also depends how you define "closer to God."  I suspect that could mean many different things to different people.

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Re: Band's who don't come off as Christian anymore question

Post by eatbugs on Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:19 pm

I think we need to define idolatry.  In another thread I referenced a past sin of treating Christian metal as an idol.  By this I meant I made it more important than God.  This isn't idolatry the way Baal worship in the Old Testament was idolatry.  At the other end this isn't "idolatry" the way you say Roger Martinez seemed to define it (I remember that thread but not well enough to quote him on it).  If idolatry is simply looking up to a celebrity then we all do it, Christians, atheists, anyone falls into that mistake.  We shouldn't do it but it's not idolatry: it's not a sin.  IF Roger ever deserved to be looked up to it was as an ordained minister, not as a heavy metal celebrity.  I agree with sabbatharian's comment on hero worship.

As for the individuals mentioned or any other Christian musician, I don't know and I have no reason to assume they are not Christians.  Sometimes I wonder if it's better not to know about their personal lives.  If I like the music and lyrics but later find out something negative about a band member (even if it's nothing more than "they're a jerk"), it wrecks a good band and positive lyrics.  I'll also stay out of the drama...

On the other hand I don't want to support fakers.  Example: I felt lied to buying As I Lay Dying's Awakened as a Christian-friendly album then reading the lyrics (especially "A Greater Foundation") and then that whole thing blowing up.

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