As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

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As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Hardcore Christian on Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:49 pm

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by JPK72 on Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:12 am

Killer song














too soon??? lol
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:48 am

Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by bjorn agin on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:44 pm

To be honest I never listened to the band before, but that video sounds very much like a Demon Hunter song. Is that their typical sound?
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Hardcore Christian on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:48 pm

A lot happened obviously after he got out a year and a half ago

The song is incredible and I am stoked again for the future

I understand them realizing this is where they had the most success, as Wovenwar they were back to playing bars in small towns across the US, with this I am sure they have at least the next 5 years to make back some money before they call it quits

I can't imagine the first contact they had back with Tim, Mancino said in an interview a year ago that he hoped Tim was doing well
I looked and all of them stopped posting on social media back in January, I can't imagine trying to keep this under wraps

From the lyrics, I would say he is pretty sincere (it will never please some people though and its understandable)




the lies, the weight it’s clear i lost my way deceit, decay decomposing i thought i was an architect but i was just moving dirt stacking mud over malice covered-up forming nothing but a pile of hurt i hadn’t been building (building) the time was spent digging (digging) boring the barriers that kept others away (away) the deeper the walls the less anyone could hear (hear me) fall so now i know there is no one else to blame buried alive inside of my own grave and there's no one else to blame buried alive inside of my own grave inside of my own grave beneath my lies delusional enough to think i’d designed something great like a giant headstone inscribed to describe my shameful fate i hadn’t been building (building) the time was spent digging (digging) an ugly truth from which there was no way to escape (escape) nowhere left to hide and then finally forced to face what i’d become buried alive inside of my own grave (my grave) and there's no one else to blame buried alive inside of my own grave (my grave) what i’d become buried alive inside my own grave beneath my pride crushing me beneath my lies collapsing but we are still alive we are still alive buried alive inside of my own grave and there's no one else to blame buried alive inside of my own grave MY OWN GRAVE buried alive inside of my own grave and there's no one else to blame the lies and the weight, i know i lost my way (my way) what i’d become buried alive inside of my own grave (my grave) and there's no one else to blame buried alive… buried alive finally forced to face what i’d become what i’d become in my own grave (buried) in my own grave (alive)
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Hardcore Christian on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 pm

bjorn agin wrote:To be honest I never listened to the band before, but that video sounds very much like a Demon Hunter song. Is that their typical sound?
Mostly they have always been fairly melodic







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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by bigtreads on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:38 am

wow this tune smokes
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by My Awesome Timothy on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:55 am

Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

Wow!!!
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by 11razorwire on Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:16 am

Digging this song.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:37 pm

bigtreads wrote:wow this tune smokes

11razorwire wrote:Digging this song.

I have listened to it so many times now Very Happy
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by timekeeper on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:34 am

Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

Just a bit harsh there, don't you think?  No one knows someone's heart, God does, and scripture is clear about casting stones on others.  Sure, he messed up badly, but so have I, and I'm sure you have as well.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by bjorn agin on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:13 am

timekeeper wrote:Just a bit harsh there, don't you think?  No one knows someone's heart, God does, and scripture is clear about casting stones on others.  Sure, he messed up badly, but so have I, and I'm sure you have as well.

That's a problem with how society treats those who have spent time in prison. According to the justice system. The offender has served their time, and "justice has been served". But society treats them like they have a permanent strike against them.

But what does Jesus say to do?
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Fearless For The King on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:15 pm

First off, I like the song. I was kinda just lurking around the forum but this made me log in. We are not the judge of any man, Christ is. I felt lied to when Tim came out and said all the crazy stuff he said after he got caught trying to kill his wife. How he hadn't been a Christian in years and all the other stuff, (no need to hash it out here, it's all on the internet to re-read if you want). It's tough when someone we look up to falls, especially as far as Tim did, but if he has truly repented of his sins and come back to Christ, than Christ has forgiven him and so should we. As believers we need to lift him and As I Lay Dying up to the Lord. We don't have to like AILD or Tim for that matter, we don't have to support this band financially. I believe that we will see by Tim's actions as he moves forward if he is truly a believer or not. He will either have fruit or he won't. It will take a lot to trust him again but if he truly has repented than the Lord will glorify himself through Tim and the band. All of us should pray for and hope for the best, not condemn a man for he was before we see who he has become. "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by petrafan007 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:11 pm

Wow, this song was incredible. I for one have to say that what he did was disgusting but not the unforgivable sin. I think he needs mercy because---had I been in that same situation---I would be begging for that same mercy to be given to me. I think what Satan meant for evil God will turn into something good. There is a lot of potential here.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by GACatmandu on Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:08 pm

You have to be kidding me most of you are defending a guy that tried to have his wife murdered, that's sick, not just sick, it's a special kind of sick.
 
What about the book you all say you believe in so much, what does that say about murder? What about the Ten Commandments? 

The guy should at the very least still be in jail, should be replaced as the singer of this band, and should never work in any Christian field of employment ever again. 

Funny how Christians are so willing to completely forgive something like this, and go about their merry way as long as they like the output, last I thought of forgiveness if one so chooses to forgive it doesn't mean you have to go back to the way things were before the thing one is forgiven for.

anyway, this isn't the only time Christians have chosen to look past something that should really influence their decision making, and they go in the completely wrong direction, and it won't be the last.

I haven't posted here in a long, long time, and to be honest this topic has reminded me of some of the reasons why.

Have Fun
later.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Livna on Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:48 pm

GACatmandu wrote:You have to be kidding me most of you are defending a guy that tried to have his wife murdered, that's sick, not just sick, it's a special kind of sick.
 
What about the book you all say you believe in so much, what does that say about murder? What about the Ten Commandments? 

The guy should at the very least still be in jail, should be replaced as the singer of this band, and should never work in any Christian field of employment ever again. 

Funny how Christians are so willing to completely forgive something like this, and go about their merry way as long as they like the output, last I thought of forgiveness if one so chooses to forgive it doesn't mean you have to go back to the way things were before the thing one is forgiven for.

anyway, this isn't the only time Christians have chosen to look past something that should really influence their decision making, and they go in the completely wrong direction, and it won't be the last.

I haven't posted here in a long, long time, and to be honest this topic has reminded me of some of the reasons why.

Have Fun
later.
 
I would have to agree with you in regards to AILD. Was never a big fan of them but that’s neither here or there. Yes as Christians we need to forgive him but that doesn’t mean we should automatically accept him back in society let alone a front man for a Christian band.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Hardcore Christian on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:35 am

Livna wrote:
GACatmandu wrote:You have to be kidding me most of you are defending a guy that tried to have his wife murdered, that's sick, not just sick, it's a special kind of sick.
 
What about the book you all say you believe in so much, what does that say about murder? What about the Ten Commandments? 

The guy should at the very least still be in jail, should be replaced as the singer of this band, and should never work in any Christian field of employment ever again. 

Funny how Christians are so willing to completely forgive something like this, and go about their merry way as long as they like the output, last I thought of forgiveness if one so chooses to forgive it doesn't mean you have to go back to the way things were before the thing one is forgiven for.

anyway, this isn't the only time Christians have chosen to look past something that should really influence their decision making, and they go in the completely wrong direction, and it won't be the last.

I haven't posted here in a long, long time, and to be honest this topic has reminded me of some of the reasons why.

Have Fun
later.
 
I would have to agree with you in regards to AILD. Was never a big fan of them but that’s neither here or there. Yes as Christians we need to forgive him but that doesn’t mean we should automatically accept him back in society let alone a front man for a Christian band.

I didn't know their were Christian fields of employment? Can you direct me to the correct website so I can sign up?

Not to get all theological but all sin is the same, and its up to the individual to forgive

Christ forgave so I will as well

If this song sucked I would still feel the same way, the biggest thing to me is if these guys (the other members) who were betrayed can forgive, I think I should be able to as well

And one last thing, (maybe I shouldnt have put it in the Christian section) but they have not said they are a Christian band at all lol! 

I honestly doubt the other members are, other than maybe Tim, if what he said in that AP interview is true, then he supposedly is, but other than him I would not call them a Christian band anyway
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by petrafan007 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:43 am

GACatmandu wrote:You have to be kidding me most of you are defending a guy that tried to have his wife murdered, that's sick, not just sick, it's a special kind of sick.
 
What about the book you all say you believe in so much, what does that say about murder? What about the Ten Commandments? 

The guy should at the very least still be in jail, should be replaced as the singer of this band, and should never work in any Christian field of employment ever again. 

Funny how Christians are so willing to completely forgive something like this, and go about their merry way as long as they like the output, last I thought of forgiveness if one so chooses to forgive it doesn't mean you have to go back to the way things were before the thing one is forgiven for.

anyway, this isn't the only time Christians have chosen to look past something that should really influence their decision making, and they go in the completely wrong direction, and it won't be the last.

I haven't posted here in a long, long time, and to be honest this topic has reminded me of some of the reasons why.

Have Fun
later.

Kidding me? I understanding forgiving people who do vile things is tough. But, you might as well tell Jesus that he has got to be kidding you for dying for ALL of us (scumbags even worse than him) while we were yet sinners. Surely, there must be some universe in which this guy could repent, ask for forgiveness, and redeem himself. If ANYONE could fathom that, it should be a Christian. Forgiveness means COMPLETE forgiveness. It doesn't mean forget and full trust. But for AILD to allow him back in the band SPEAKS to that he is genuine and wants to change for the better. They all had to agree on it. Lastly, who are we to say he shouldn't be allowed to do any Christian band again?

If this is a reason why you don't want to post here, then so be it. We will not apologize for extreme grace and forgiveness...as that is what Jesus would do.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Kerrick on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:14 am

Forgiveness is an interesting topic...  Perhaps someone should start a thread specifically about it?  I'm curious what folks have to say about the role of repentance as a requirement for forgiveness, as an example.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:15 am

This isn't about sin, it's about sincere repentance.  It's about not accepting behavior that even the pagan world wouldn't tolerate, as I demonstrated above from quoted scripture.  We should have higher standards than heathens.  Serving 2 years for murder isn't even in the neighborhood of "serving his time".

If they were reuniting and giving 100% of the profit to his wife it would appear to be sincere. 

But I imagine that the people who fell for their faux Christian act (as they admitted) before will fall for it again.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Devon Hill on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:07 pm

I understand the healthiness of showing true repentance, and not only serving the proper jail time, but also showing and initiating submission to others in a structured process to show this repentance and to work out the issues properly in your life.  Many pastors that fall due to sexual sin as an example go through this time of submission to others, letting go of their pastoral role for a season, and when they are healed and set free from the issues that caused the sin in the first place, it is possible God will release them back into ministry once again (or sometimes not).

However, I am curious to hear the thoughts of those that disagree that Tim should be back in the band.  Is this simply due to the perceived lack of doing something similar as above?  I'm curious to hear your thoughts if the same thing happened with a secular artist.  As an example, let's say the singer of Cannibal Corpse did the same thing as Tim, served his jail sentence, issued a sincere apology, and then desired to join Cannibal Corpse again.  Would you be opposed to that?  If so, why?  If not, why?  What if he started a brand new band?  Would you be opposed to that?  Again why or why not?  What if he became a sound guy for the band or something like that (so not the public face of the band) - would you think that was ok?  Is it only the fact that it is perceived as a Christian band that is causing the concern of Tim joining again?  Just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by strangerhoncho on Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:18 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

That passage is about unrepentant people flaunting their sin as acceptable and laudable within Christian community.  Not relevant to this situation, where a man has been punished, has repented, and is remorseful and seeking to make amends to those he can.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."  -- Matthew 5:22-23

So we're all just as guilty, according to Jesus.  It's a scandalous, ridiculous thing that we can repent of the worst sins and be covered by his blood, but that's the crux of Christianity.  We don't get to judge who is sincere and who is not, lest we presume to be God.

The world is where there is no forgiveness for the repentant sinner.  Every one a self-righteous judge, stone ready in hand.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by strangerhoncho on Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:33 pm

I forget what podcast it was, but I heard an interesting discussion about what careers should be permissable for people who have sinned publicly and have repented.  As a society we seem to have a problem with people doing the same career after they've fallen from grace and come back.  So is it ok for them to do something else?  Or can they only be a janitor or some other bottom level job usually open to ex-cons?  Or should they never be allowed to work again and just be homeless/supported by our taxes?  Or should they just be killed off, problem solved?

It's an interesting question for those who are unable to forgive.  Where does your judgement stop?  What is the acceptable role in society for those you cannot forgive?

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by timekeeper on Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:58 pm

strangerhoncho wrote:
Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

That passage is about unrepentant people flaunting their sin as acceptable and laudable within Christian community.  Not relevant to this situation, where a man has been punished, has repented, and is remorseful and seeking to make amends to those he can.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."  -- Matthew 5:22-23

So we're all just as guilty, according to Jesus.  It's a scandalous, ridiculous thing that we can repent of the worst sins and be covered by his blood, but that's the crux of Christianity.  We don't get to judge who is sincere and who is not, lest we presume to be God.

The world is where there is no forgiveness for the repentant sinner.  Every one a self-righteous judge, stone ready in hand.
True Christianity...well said.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:21 pm

strangerhoncho wrote:
Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

That passage is about unrepentant people flaunting their sin as acceptable and laudable within Christian community.  Not relevant to this situation, where a man has been punished, has repented, and is remorseful and seeking to make amends to those he can.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."  -- Matthew 5:22-23

So we're all just as guilty, according to Jesus.  It's a scandalous, ridiculous thing that we can repent of the worst sins and be covered by his blood, but that's the crux of Christianity.  We don't get to judge who is sincere and who is not, lest we presume to be God.

The world is where there is no forgiveness for the repentant sinner.  Every one a self-righteous judge, stone ready in hand.

I thought I made it clear before that this isn't about forgiveness.

Serving two years for murdering a woman isn't "punishment".  The only reason she isn't dead is because he is incompetent, not because he didn't have every intention of murdering her.

He has still not faced the appropriate punishment.  It's ludicrous that the Christian community should have lower standards for behavior than the pagan community.

He is not "seeking to make amends to those he can" either.  This is MURDER we're talking about, not a theft or something.  Give the money from AILD to his wife and kids and get a real job on the side if you really want to TRY to make amends.  He would never do that because this is all about him, as it always has been.

If you think 2 years is just fine, why not 2 hours in jail?  I mean, let's not judge his heart amirite?  He repented as soon as the handcuffs were snapped on.  Stop conflating the issue.

I think a lot of this "forgiveness" is really just folks who couldn't care less if his wife had actually been murdered.  But do unto others, right?  If she was my loved one, I would want him to do his time.  You guys would be OK with only 2 years served if it was your wife/mother/daughter?

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by exo on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:03 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
strangerhoncho wrote:
Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

That passage is about unrepentant people flaunting their sin as acceptable and laudable within Christian community.  Not relevant to this situation, where a man has been punished, has repented, and is remorseful and seeking to make amends to those he can.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."  -- Matthew 5:22-23

So we're all just as guilty, according to Jesus.  It's a scandalous, ridiculous thing that we can repent of the worst sins and be covered by his blood, but that's the crux of Christianity.  We don't get to judge who is sincere and who is not, lest we presume to be God.

The world is where there is no forgiveness for the repentant sinner.  Every one a self-righteous judge, stone ready in hand.

I thought I made it clear before that this isn't about forgiveness.

Serving two years for murdering a woman isn't "punishment".  The only reason she isn't dead is because he is incompetent, not because he didn't have every intention of murdering her.

He has still not faced the appropriate punishment.  It's ludicrous that the Christian community should have lower standards for behavior than the pagan community.

He is not "seeking to make amends to those he can" either.  This is MURDER we're talking about, not a theft or something.  Give the money from AILD to his wife and kids and get a real job on the side if you really want to TRY to make amends.  He would never do that because this is all about him, as it always has been.

If you think 2 years is just fine, why not 2 hours in jail?  I mean, let's not judge his heart amirite?  He repented as soon as the handcuffs were snapped on.  Stop conflating the issue.

I think a lot of this "forgiveness" is really just folks who couldn't care less if his wife had actually been murdered.  But do unto others, right?  If she was my loved one, I would want him to do his time.  You guys would be OK with only 2 years served if it was your wife/mother/daughter?



His sentencing and the implementation of it are outside our domain, and in the hands of the court system.  They gave him a sentence with certain conditions (I.e. parole/commutation)that were set up under the constraints of law, and judge that those conditions were fulfilled as set forth.....
Whether or not anyone is “OK” with it isn’t about Tim Lambesis at all.  It’s about dissatisfaction with the court system’s handling of the case.  The only conflating of issues going on here is on your part.

As far as the concept of “appropriate punishment” goes......the “appropriate punishment” under the law (and OT decree) for the adulterous woman in John 7/8 was execution, and Jesus upended that idea pretty firmly.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:16 pm

Are you going to answer my questions I posed?

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by exo on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:19 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:Are you going to answer my questions I posed?


They’re quite irrelevant, for the reasons I gave in my previous post.  Doesn’t MATTER if i’m OK with things or not....and i’ll GUARANTEE that a whole lot of the populous thought the adulterous woman didn’t receive the appropriate punishment, either.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:33 pm

It hurts the Christian metal scene to be so willfully blind to the phoniness of this high-profile band.  Those of us who care about this scene do care about how it's viewed, especially when the critics are completely right.

He should not be accepted in the same position he had pre-attempted murder. 

It matters if you're OK with it if you consider buying his music, go see him play, or even bother listening to that song at all.  Also if the band should be promoted at all in Christian forums or ex-communicated, so to speak.  The Bible even speaks about believers being removed from the church.

Is there any crime at all that could be committed where people here would think a musician/band should not be promoted on Christian websites?  If it's not murder, I take it that's a no.  What if he was a child molestor and a mass murderer?

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by exo on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:42 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:It hurts the Christian metal scene to be so willfully blind to the phoniness of this high-profile band.  Those of us who care about this scene do care about how it's viewed, especially when the critics are completely right.

He should not be accepted in the same position he had pre-attempted murder. 

It matters if you're OK with it if you consider buying his music, go see him play, or even bother listening to that song at all.  Also if the band should be promoted at all in Christian forums or ex-communicated, so to speak.  The Bible even speaks about believers being removed from the church.

Is there any crime at all that could be committed where people here would think a musician/band should not be promoted on Christian websites?  If it's not murder, I take it that's a no.  What if he was a child molestor and a mass murderer?

ah so it’s all about the optics ans scene pride for you.  Gotcha.  I can disengage comfortably from this conversation at this point, because we’ll never see eye to eye, not do I feel any particular need to justify my disagreements with your position.

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"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:59 pm

It's not optics.  It's who we accept to represent us.  That's not superficial, as you suggest it is.

You're just having trouble answering my final question.  I understand though, because it simply can't be justified.

What other organization anywhere would accept ANYONE no matter what they did to represent them and their views?  Apparently only the Christian metal scene!

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by strangerhoncho on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:38 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:It hurts the Christian metal scene to be so willfully blind to the phoniness of this high-profile band.  Those of us who care about this scene do care about how it's viewed, especially when the critics are completely right.

He should not be accepted in the same position he had pre-attempted murder. 

It matters if you're OK with it if you consider buying his music, go see him play, or even bother listening to that song at all.  Also if the band should be promoted at all in Christian forums or ex-communicated, so to speak.  The Bible even speaks about believers being removed from the church.

Is there any crime at all that could be committed where people here would think a musician/band should not be promoted on Christian websites?  If it's not murder, I take it that's a no.  What if he was a child molestor and a mass murderer?

Re: mass murderer, you mean like the apostle Paul?

If the worst of us can't be forgiven by Christ, then what is the point?  Of what use was his death and resurrection if that same death and resurrection is not possible in the hearts of vile sinners?

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:54 pm

Again, you're conflating.  I never said the worst aren't forgiven by Christ.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by strangerhoncho on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:43 pm

As I understand it, you've said a man who intended murder in his heart should not be forgiven as you or I hope to be for our equally heinous (according to Jesus) sins, because he has not yet been punished sufficiently by the world's justice system to be truly repentant by your standards.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:16 am

strangerhoncho wrote:As I understand it, you've said a man who intended murder in his heart should not be forgiven as you or I hope to be for our equally heinous (according to Jesus) sins, because he has not yet been punished sufficiently by the world's justice system to be truly repentant by your standards.

No, I don't think he should be a representative of Christian metal anymore or allowed anywhere near Christian outlets.  Shows, fests, forums, labels, anything like that.  I also don't think Christians should continue to give him money and support his work.  Treat him as a heathen and a tax collector, so to speak.

Tim did a lot more than "intend murder in his heart".  Through his actions he committed murder and only because of his ineptness it didn't happen.  He had DAYS of contemplation on this where he intended to kill the woman he pledged to protect and love.  This was not an act of passion in a moment.  100% pre-meditated and cold-blooded.

I don't think he's sincere in his repentance but that's not really a factor here for me.   He should not be restored to the same position that he was in before the attempted murder.

Why should the Christian scene have lower standards for behavior than the secular scene? 

A recent example:
The black metal band Inquisition had a scandal where their band leader was convicted of owning child pornography.  When it came to light, their tour was cancelled.  Their label immediately dropped them.

Similar things have happened to members of Decrepit Birth and Iced Earth.  They were FIRED.  Their severe crimes were not overlooked.  They weren't ignored in the interest of protecting the band's name/brand the way AILD has done here.


Forgiveness in one's heart and real-life consequences are not equivalent.  That's what I mean by conflating unequal things.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Black Rider on Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:17 pm

I'm curious where's he repented as all i've seen is him saying he made mistakes. I will say, two years is no punishment for someone who tried to have someone killed. Forgiveness and repentance don't do away with the punishment for the crime.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by exo on Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:10 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:It's not optics.  It's who we accept to represent us.  That's not superficial, as you suggest it is.

You're just having trouble answering my final question.  I understand though, because it simply can't be justified.

What other organization anywhere would accept ANYONE no matter what they did to represent them and their views?  Apparently only the Christian metal scene!


You know, after a day’s reflection, maybe disengaging isn’t the right track to take.

Dude....you just described EXACTLY what “optics” is.  Don’t understand what about that’s sonhardfor you to decipher.  Your concern is based around how the acceptance “looks”.  

Your last question isn’t “tough” for me.  It’s IRRELEVANT to me, because i’m quite legitimately not concerned with how the world views the Christian Metal scene.  They ALREADY call us clowns, hypocrites, and liars......and NOTHING is going to change that. The world will think what it will, and to be frank, neither you nor I are any better than Lambesis in the eyes of God, damned but for Christ.  As Strangerhoncho pointed out roughly half the NT was written by a repented muderer, and that’s our instruction manual right there were talking about.  

I don’t find your take o the matter to be justifiable, just full of anger, wounded pride, and scorn.


Like I said, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this.

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"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by KaramKaram on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:40 pm

Have you ever heard of that man who committed adultery and murdered the husband’s woman he committed adultery with? He also contemplated and worked his way around to have the husband killed and succeeded!!! And he still was called a man according to God’s heart!!! 
King David, does it resonate with you? Does God has low standars too? 


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BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Hardcore Christian on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:25 am

KaramKaram wrote:BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.
Wow good to hear you are still doing well brother!

Hope to hear some more from you soon
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by eatbugs on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:19 am

KaramKaram wrote:BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.

Look who's alive!

Thanks for the update!

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:54 am

KaramKaram wrote:Have you ever heard of that man who committed adultery and murdered the husband’s woman he committed adultery with? He also contemplated and worked his way around to have the husband killed and succeeded!!! And he still was called a man according to God’s heart!!! 
King David, does it resonate with you? Does God has low standars too? 

His son died as a result of his sin.  Ever heard that?

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Temple of Blood on Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:07 am

Devon Hill wrote:However, I am curious to hear the thoughts of those that disagree that Tim should be back in the band.  Is this simply due to the perceived lack of doing something similar as above?  I'm curious to hear your thoughts if the same thing happened with a secular artist.  As an example, let's say the singer of Cannibal Corpse did the same thing as Tim, served his jail sentence, issued a sincere apology, and then desired to join Cannibal Corpse again.  Would you be opposed to that?  If so, why?  If not, why?  What if he started a brand new band?  Would you be opposed to that?  Again why or why not?  What if he became a sound guy for the band or something like that (so not the public face of the band) - would you think that was ok?  Is it only the fact that it is perceived as a Christian band that is causing the concern of Tim joining again?  Just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Good question.

I don't think even George Fisher would be allowed back in CC after being convicted of attempted murder.  I think CC would be active with a fill-in vocalist(s), one of whom would become their new singer.  I don't think they would wait until their murderer vocalist is out of jail to be active again.  They replaced their original singer and would do it again if absolutely necessary IMHO. 

But I think you're asking "should he be allowed back in the band", regardless of the practical considerations.  I don't think the standards of a Christian band are equal to the standards of a shock-metal band like CC.  For one thing, CC are dealing in fantasy/horror/fictional scenarios and obviously not advocating for what they sing.  That is completely different from what Christian metal bands do.  I don't think a murderer should be even allowed back in CC, much less any Christian band.  I wouldn't care if Tim got a job running sound for some band, but I personally would never hire him.  If CC did hire a murderer to be their vocalist, I think they would have bands not wanting to tour with them and I think it's likely they would get dropped from Metal Blade after recording like 10+ albums for them.  There would be serious real-world consequences and it would not be glossed over in favor of cheap entertainment.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by exo on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:29 am

You know, I’m gonna apply a little of your own logic and reasoning to another Biblical example: Peter, often referred to as chief amongst the disciples. There is an important part of his history that is a direct comparison to the Tim Lambesis situation. The only reason he is not a successful murderer is his own ineptness with his sword in the garden of gethsemane, and he outright denied Christ multiple times......and yet he was the first of the disciples Christ appeared to after His resurrection and Christ himself called the Peter the “rock” the church was to be built upon.

A great deal of the foundation of Christianity comes from a pair of murderers and Christ-deniers that were accepted or re-accepted into prominent roles within the early days of the faith.

Furthermore, I’d argue that you’re not actually holding things to a “higher standard”....you’re clinging with everything you have to a worldly standard, and simply applying it more harshly. You keep citing how the secular scene has handled (some) incidents, as if that is the standard hold up and compare to. It’s not. Christ’s handling of multiple “punishable by death” incidents and murderers is well recorded.....

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"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by KaramKaram on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:29 am

Temple of Blood wrote:
KaramKaram wrote:Have you ever heard of that man who committed adultery and murdered the husband’s woman he committed adultery with? He also contemplated and worked his way around to have the husband killed and succeeded!!! And he still was called a man according to God’s heart!!! 
King David, does it resonate with you? Does God has low standars too? 

His son died as a result of his sin.  Ever heard that?

Still a man of God’s heart.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by exo on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:53 am

Just for the record: the name Tim Lambesis makes my skin crawl. I have a VERY visceral reaction to it, and fight my base human nature about spewing venom and invective every time I hear it......but I’m not arguing from a “devil’s advocate” POV with what i’ve beensaying, either. I truly believe our “higher standard” bears little resemblance to a worldly one.

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"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here."


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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by petrafan007 on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:02 pm

Saying someone who has truly repented and paid their dues (even if YOU don't think it was punishment enough) that they are not allowed to represent Christians anymore in any way is just the most unChristian thing I've ever heard. That's not the Christ I know.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by Blake on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:31 pm

KaramKaram wrote:BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.
Long time no see. Glad to see you are doing well.
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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by strangerhoncho on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:32 pm

petrafan007 wrote:Saying someone who has truly repented and paid their dues (even if YOU don't think it was punishment enough) that they are not allowed to represent Christians anymore in any way is just the most unChristian thing I've ever heard. That's not the Christ I know.

This.  The ONLY people who can represent Christians are repentant sinners saved by grace.

Those who don't represent Christ are the Pharisees, the judges, and those for whom forgiveness is foolishness.  That's who shouldn't represent Christian metal.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by strangerhoncho on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:38 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
strangerhoncho wrote:As I understand it, you've said a man who intended murder in his heart should not be forgiven as you or I hope to be for our equally heinous (according to Jesus) sins, because he has not yet been punished sufficiently by the world's justice system to be truly repentant by your standards.

Why should the Christian scene have lower standards for behavior than the secular scene? 

A recent example:
The black metal band Inquisition had a scandal where their band leader was convicted of owning child pornography.  When it came to light, their tour was cancelled.  Their label immediately dropped them.

Similar things have happened to members of Decrepit Birth and Iced Earth.  They were FIRED.  Their severe crimes were not overlooked.  They weren't ignored in the interest of protecting the band's name/brand the way AILD has done here.

It's not a lower standard.  It's a higher standard, that of repentance and forgiveness.  That's why Christ's sacrifice and grace is called the "foolishness of God."  Can't be understood by the world's standard of justice.

The world's standard is an eye for an eye.  Judgement of others, despite everyone's guilt.  That's the lower standard here.

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Re: As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Post by JPK72 on Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:27 am

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