Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

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Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by WildWorld on Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:27 pm

So what are your thoughts on the whole Net Neutrality situation? From what I've heard it sounds like something that should be supported, is there any downside to the open internet that we dont know about?

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by MikeInFla on Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:58 pm

No idea what it is. The more I learn, the less I know.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by metaldude on Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:50 pm

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by New Creation on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:33 am

If I owned an Internet Service Provider, then who is the government to say what services I have to provide to my customers? If a company wants to throttle bandwidth for certain types of traffic, or block specific content, is that not their right?
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by WildWorld on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 am

New Creation wrote:If I owned an Internet Service Provider, then who is the government to say what services I have to provide to my customers? If a company wants to throttle bandwidth for certain types of traffic, or block specific content, is that not their right?
The problem there is that you run the risk of ISPs blocking sites for petty reasons (like not liking the politics of a site owner).

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by New Creation on Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:47 am

WildWorld wrote:
New Creation wrote:If I owned an Internet Service Provider, then who is the government to say what services I have to provide to my customers? If a company wants to throttle bandwidth for certain types of traffic, or block specific content, is that not their right?
The problem there is that you run the risk of ISPs blocking sites for petty reasons (like not liking the politics of a site owner).

If I own a discussion forum and host it on the internet for users to join and participate, do I not have the same ability? I can block liberals or conservatives at my whim. This should be supported, not hindered.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by ImagoDei on Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:38 pm

Here are some interesting perspectives regarding the topic






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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by alldatndensum on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:40 pm

New Creation wrote:
WildWorld wrote:
New Creation wrote:If I owned an Internet Service Provider, then who is the government to say what services I have to provide to my customers? If a company wants to throttle bandwidth for certain types of traffic, or block specific content, is that not their right?
The problem there is that you run the risk of ISPs blocking sites for petty reasons (like not liking the politics of a site owner).

If I own a discussion forum and host it on the internet for users to join and participate, do I not have the same ability? I can block liberals or conservatives at my whim. This should be supported, not hindered.



But should AT&T be allowed to throttle users of Amazon Prime Video or Netflix because they own Directv?  If I pay for the service, then I should get the same service.  Why?  It is called competition.  If they are given the right to block what they don't want you to have, then I am going to leave my ISP and find someone who won't block what I want.  The whole concept of neutrality is what has grown the internet into the megalithic phenomenon that it has become.

I am paying for a certain amount of access to the world wide web.  I am not paying for an ISP to tell me what I am or am not allowed to have just based on what they own.  That also gives them too much power to begin to force a particular viewpoint down your throat.  If your ISP is owned by a super liberal company, they could also limit your access to sites that are conservative.  If your ISP is owned by a company that is anti-religion (and they are out there), then they could block your access to church sites, the CMR, anything to do with Christian music, etc.  Or, flip that to the other side.  If the company were super conservative, they could block your access to anything BUT Christian sites.

ISPs needs to stay neutral.  Individual websites, however, can promote a point of view and will draw whatever audience they can.  No one forces you to view or join a site that differs in viewpoints than you.  I see it like this:  I can spew anti-Christ rhetoric here and they can block me.  I can go to a Satanic forum and try to preach Jesus and they can block me.  They have an audience and can police their own site.  However, when you are the ISP and want to control what I can and can't see, that is when you have too much influence.

The net should be neutral.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by New Creation on Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:49 pm

alldat, would you support the government telling all all bakers that they have to bake cakes for homosexual weddings? Or do you support bakers being able to say no to causes they disagree with?
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by exo on Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:55 pm

New Creation wrote:alldat, would you support the government telling all all bakers that they have to bake cakes for homosexual weddings? Or do you support bakers being able to say no to causes they disagree with?


The better question Adam, would be do YOU support a water utility headed by an Muslim charging a significantly higher premium price for water delivery to a Christian household?  Or a gay man in charge of an electric service saying that they can only deliver 50 amp service toa church building?  Having access to homeschool resources throttled down to the point of unusability because Bill Gates is a proponent of common core?

ISPs at this point are far more akin to a utility service than they are any sort of small, private enterprise.  You're drawing the wrong parallel......

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Erasmus on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:19 pm

To Adam's point however this could be offset by market competition. If my ISP decided to restrict my access I would switch providers. It's a relatively open market.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by exo on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:54 pm

"Relatively" open.....maybe.  I live in a city with a population of approximately 51,000.  In my neighborhood, I have exactly the same number of (non dial up) ISP options as I have options for water, electric, and gas, and if you investigate nationwide, you'll find the same situation is pretty widespread:regional monopoly.  It's not as bad overall as tradtitional utlity service choices tend to be, but it's also FAR from resembling an honest "open market" situation.

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Verbum Lux on Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:03 pm

I'm definitely for Net Neutrality.  Alldat and Exo are absolutely right.  The days when the internet was a novelty or luxury are long, long gone.  ISP's are utility companies, like power or water companies.  The internet has not only become a part of individual lives, it's an large and very important part of the economy.

There is more at stake than just ISP's deciding to penalizing people with viewpoints they don't like.  While I agree that it's a risk and is certainly worrisome, I don't think that's what is really driving the push against Net Neutrality.  It's about GREED, plain and simple.  Alldat's example of AT&T throttling sites that compete with one of it's services is one concern.  Another is that ISP's would demand money from businesses or else they'd throttle them.  That might not be such a big deal for Amazon, but say you're a small business that relies on the internet for some or all of it's dealings.  You likely wouldn't be able to afford to keep up with big boys speedwise.  Not only that, but in order to have decent access for your business, you'd have to pony up to MULTIPLE ISPS.  Comcast, Spectrum, AT&T, Verizon, Etc. ..... they could all be demanding that you pay up or else.

As for competition, depending on where you live, there can be little or none.  It's not like going out to buy a t-shirt or a pair of shoes.  If say, Wal-Mart decides to jack up their prices on sneakers, I have many other options to purchase such an item.  Not so for internet access.  I live in a moderately large population center.  To the best of my knowledge, there are only two ISP's here that offer broadband internet (and let's face it, dial-up is irrelevant at this point).

Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would oppose neutrality unless you have a major stake in an ISP, or are a hardcore laissez-faire capitalist that opposes any sort of government regulation of business whatsoever.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Erasmus on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:07 am

Well I am surprised that the situation in the US is far removed from my options in Australia. I can choose between about 10 ISP's, all on Broadband (no dial up).

I do believe in Government regulation and a free market. Government regulation is required to prevent monopolies. In our case the Government requires that the provider of the infrastructure provide access to the internet lines to retailers for a nominal fee.

It was only 20yrs ago that we only had one option for our phone and internet and it was expensive. Now competition has provided better service for less money.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by ThomasEversole on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:44 pm

I don't think ISPs should disallow content because "they don't like it", any more than a McDonald's should disallow people with green shirts because "they don't like them".

As for monopolies, my response to that is "git gud, scrub". May the company with the best service/merchandise at the most reasonable cost, win.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by alldatndensum on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:24 am

alldat, would you support the government telling all all bakers that they have to bake cakes for homosexual weddings? Or do you support bakers being able to say no to causes they disagree with?

I don't think they are even remotely the same.  As Exo said, most of us are limited with who we can use as ISPs have become little more than regional monopolies.  If they completely control the information you have available, then you are the mercy of their privately held indoctrination.  I only have two options for an ISP locally, and there is no competition.  They cost the same.  If they both limited what I could see, my only option would be to sign off.

As for the baker issue, I will swing at that.  I don't think they are the same.  Why?  Because there is always another baker out there.  If there isn't one locally, the next town over has one.  Catering companies will bake cakes, too.  You have options.  The only reason we are having this discussion is because a homosexual couple knew they would get denied so they could raise a ruckus in the media and force a lawsuit.  Rather than slowly work on legislation, the homosexual community wants full acceptance and participation NOW and will do whatever it takes to force you to comply.  

Actually, maybe it is more like the internet freedom.  Instead of looking at the baker being able to choose, their freedoms were taken away by someone forcing them to comply through the courts.  That is sort of what your ISPs would do if they are allowed to control what you can partake of online.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Blake on Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:46 am

One of the concerns with Net Neutrality is that ISPs will begin selling "packages" for different types of content. For example, if you want to be able to access streaming sites like youtube, Netflix, hulu etc, they can charge you a premium just to access the sites, this is before actually paying membships on the sites themselves.

Then they could charge you an additional premium for social sites, another premium for marketplace sites (amazon, ebay, etc).

Basically it would allow your internet browsing to become like Pay Per View
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Queue on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:12 am

De regulation allows for smaller companies to come onto the scene. Real competition arises. The mighty fall and the consumer wins. I follow the general rule that the government is not here to help. Everything they touch becomes very inefficient.  This is just my opinion....your mileage may vary.

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Verbum Lux on Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:42 pm

Well, it looks the ISP corporations are winning.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/technology/fcc-net-neutrality.html

It's sickening, but hardly surprising.  Grrrr
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by alldatndensum on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:42 am

There are numerous petitions online you can sign if you are against this.  Don't be fooled into signing anything other than the one on the White House's petition page.  This is the official one that will tell legislators which way they need to go.  If your representatives and senators are in favor of this, they may change their mind if they see there is enough outcry from the folks back home who won't re-elect them so they can enjoy their posh little lives.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Black Rider on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:19 pm

If there was going to be true competition i'd be ok with getting rid of net neutrality but since we know it will become a couple of monopolies i'm not for it. Notice you don't hear the Bill Gates of the world speaking out? This will line their pockets.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Verbum Lux on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:23 am

Well, it looks like the FCC, specifically the Republican Commissioners, voted to kill Net Neutrality.  Like I said before, not good but not surprising.  What will actually happen now is anyone's guess.

Wired has a good article about the claims of those who wanted to do away with it, and makes the case for why these are wrong (or in the case of one point, misdirecting).

https://www.wired.com/story/the-biggest-whoppers-from-the-fccs-net-neutrality-meeting/

Of course, the big ISP's are telling us everything will be just fine.  We'll see.

The FCC Chairman, Mr. Ajit Pai tells us the FCC will protect us.  I would feel a little better about this if it wasn't coming from a guy who used to be an Associate General Counsel for Verizon.  Another who voted to kill Net Neutrality is Michael O'Rielly.  Here's what he said in 2015:

"It is important to note that Internet access is not a necessity in the day-to-day lives of Americans and doesn’t even come close to the threshold to be considered a basic human right. ... People do a disservice by overstating its relevancy or stature in people’s lives. People can and do live without Internet access, and many lead very successful lives."

He's party right ..... people can LIVE without internet access, but he seems to be seriously underestimated how much part of peoples lives it is - ESPECIALLY in business.  Now I don't think there is any risk of people being deprived from the internet entirely, but that quote makes me think the guy is either seriously out of touch or a shill for certain corporate interests.  Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence either way.

Maybe the FCC will do good job on this, but I have my doubts.  Again, we'll see.

The fight's not over yet though.  This is going to the courts.  The New York and Washington State Attorney Generals are going to sue, and I don't doubt that others will follow.  Plenty of other people and groups will oppose this anyway they can.  More power to 'em.  What I really think we need are laws in place that can't be whisked away any time we get another occupant in the oval office.   Perhaps this is unlikely with the current congress, but maybe in the future......

On a bit of a lighter note, here's a opinion piece from the Washington Post that made me smile.  It's not exactly great journalism ..... it's basically just an angry rant.  But it's a humorous (at least to me) angry rant.  Hey, might as well laugh about it.  Smile

Net neutrality is gone. Feel the freedom coursing through your veins.


EDIT:  It seems Mr Pai has made a video talking about the repeal.  It's not a serious defense of it, but he has a sense of humor, I'll give him that.

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Superjuice on Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:32 am

Yay - Google and Amazon can go pound sand now.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by d@v!d on Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:49 am

Superjuice wrote:Yay - Google and Amazon can go pound sand now.
Yeah, that pretty much plays to my sentiments.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by deathisgain on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:29 pm

It's pretty scary when you think about it. We are rolling the law back to the prehistoric 2015's. Some of you may not be old enough, but I for one remember where we were headed back then. Thank God for government regulations, they fix everything. Especially since this law dates back to the 30's, and we know what else happened in the 30's.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by WildWorld on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:39 pm

Superjuice wrote:Yay - Google and Amazon can go pound sand now.
I just hope that Amazon isnt forced to raise their prices, paticularly on their mp3/kindle downloads (which are already somewhat pricey, but still cheaper than ordering the physical product).

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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Verbum Lux on Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:47 pm

ISP's have pulled that sort of thing before.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/12/15/what-net-neutrality-rollback-means-to.html

The Associated Press in 2007 found Comcast was blocking some file-sharing services. AT&T blocked Skype and other internet calling services — which competed with its voice-call business — from the iPhone until 2009.

But again once again, we'll see.  It may be that fears of a potential backlash and bad PR will provide something of a check.
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Verbum Lux on Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:59 pm

A funny Babylon Bee article related to this topic:

http://babylonbee.com/news/internet-service-providers-not-able-decide-people-can-see-online-says-man-decides-people-can-see-online/

Ah, Mark Zuckerberg.  Gotta love this guy.  Very Happy
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Mysterious ExGamer Dude on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:32 pm

Net Neutrality is basically socialism for the internet. It adds more strict regulations, demonetization, censorship, discourages competitive marketing between internet companies and advertisers (thus reducing the economy), adds the ability for regulating websites, and domains. They can also regulate and restrict internet providers (Eg. AT&T, Verizon, Charter, Xfinity). Some of the specific regulations include the suspension or even the complete removal of websites or domains that "discriminate" against certain people. So, for example, if a Christian forum, or domain, doesn't want to have 10,000 articles dedicated to the LGBT and/or doesn't support/tolerate it, then their website or domain could be censored, banned, suspended, or completely removed altogether. In some cases, you might even get an IP ban.

Net Neutrality in a nutshell. It's a REALLY GOOD thing that this Net Neutrality thing got shot down, or we might not all be talking on here right now.


And while corruption has and will always exist within some companies (and every other form of organization, government, kingdom or country), authorities should deal with said companies individually when the situation arises as necessary, and should not use it as an excuse to demonetize and censor regular people just trying to use the internet because they do not want to participate in immoral doings.


Here is what Wikipedia says about Net Neutrality. A fair warning, you may have to sift and dig through all of the bias that this post reeks of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality
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Re: Thoughts on Net Neutrality?

Post by Verbum Lux on Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:34 pm

Personally, I don't thing government regulations are necessarily a bad thing (though they can be and sometimes are).  I'm in favor of regulations that protect consumers, workers, public safety, and the environment.  Individuals have rules that we are expected to follow for the good of society.  Businesses should too.  There are things that are more important than the accumulation of wealth.  I'm no advocate of strict socialism, but I think laissez-faire capitalism is a bad idea as well.  But I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree on that or this topic will turn into a general debate on economics.

Mysterious Gamer Dude wrote:Some of the specific regulations include the suspension or even the complete removal of websites or domains that "discriminate" against certain people. So, for example, if a Christian forum, or domain, doesn't want to have 10,000 articles dedicated to the LGBT and/or doesn't support/tolerate it, then their website or domain could be censored, banned, suspended, or completely removed altogether. In some cases, you might even get an IP ban.

Net Neutrality in a nutshell. It's a REALLY GOOD thing that this Net Neutrality thing got shot down, or we might not all be talking on here right now.

Can you show me the part of the Net Neutrality regulations that calls for that?  Because if what you're saying is true, then that part should definitely be scrapped - though I definitely don't think that means we should scrap Net Neutrality in general.  In fact, that's kind of against the concept of Net Neutrality.

Also, are you talking about the government shutting down sites whose opinions it doesn't like, or internet companies doing so?  Because many companies had anti-discrimination policies long before 2015.
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