Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

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Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:32 am

A few months ago there was this thread here that wanted to list christian top albums per genre. And it occurred to me that there was no mention of prog albums (at least up until some point). And with "prog" I mean the likes of Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Threshold, Haken and so on; "melodic prog" if you like. Both the variants with the longer songs and the shorter songs. I'm not counting the so called "progressive power metal" bands here.

This raised two questions:

1) Why would christian artists stay away from prog metal that much? I mean in general of course, because there are some christian prog bands. Sidenote: I see the same tendency in progressive rock, but this is largely masked by Neal Morse's incredible productivity with both his solo/band albums and Transatlantic. And all Kerry Livgren projects of course (Kansas, Proto-Kaw, Flagship).

2) Which christian prog bands do we know? I can sum up 7Days (although they're not that explicit), Affector(!), S91, Mehida/Wingdom. That's not an awful lot; other genres have way more representatives.

Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Professor_Valconian on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:28 am

Neal Morse. Incredibly productive. Incredibly talented. If you don't have his last two ... The Grand Experiment and Similitude of a Dream, you must purchase them immediately. You owe it to yourself.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by metaldude on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:57 am

Before I heard of the "progressive" label, I referred to this style as "musician's music". It's my opinion that it appeals to musicians more than the general music listening public. 

Here are a few more bands I enjoy.

Wake of Redemption 




God's Equation 



Above Symmetry 

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:06 am

Professor_Valconian wrote:Neal Morse. Incredibly productive. Incredibly talented. If you don't have his last two ... The Grand Experiment and Similitude of a Dream, you must purchase them immediately. You owe it to yourself.
I know! And you could have known that I know, because I mentioned Neal and his band in my original post Wink  Anyhow, those two albums are really great indeed! They are staples at my place (my wife enjoys them too).
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:10 am

Before I heard of the "progressive" label, I referred to this style as "musician's music". It's my opinion that it appeals to musicians more than the general music listening public.
It may also appeal to people with a really refined taste in music.
Very Happy

metaldude wrote:Here are a few more bands I enjoy.
Thanks for sharing! I will check them out later, right now I have Transatlantic's Kaleidoscope playing.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by metaldude on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:25 am

Andreas89 wrote:
Before I heard of the "progressive" label, I referred to this style as "musician's music". It's my opinion that it appeals to musicians more than the general music listening public.
It may also appeal to people with a really refined taste in music.
Very Happy

True. My point is that popular music has been driven by simple and repetitive hooks and progressions for almost seven decades. Progressive music is driven more by longer songs full of odd time signatures and key changes.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Staybrite on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:59 pm

I'm actually not a huge fan of most progressive music (I guess I'm just a musical simpleton)  Laughing

There are a few that I really enjoy.

Fall of Echoes (from their album Red Tree)



Orphan Project (from their album Spooning Out the Sea)



Souljourners (from the album Mind Control)



Delorean (from the album Edge of Existence)

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Black Rider on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:44 pm

Check out Shadow Gallery, not specifically christian but some members are/were. Darkwater, Veni Domine and Torman Maxt are worth checking out.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Professor_Valconian on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Sorry. Skimmed your post. I read your point # 2 and didn't see Neal mentioned.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Professor_Valconian on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:18 pm

I can also confirm that Orphan Project is some quality music. Maybe not quite as proggy as some others, but definitely tends in that direction. I have both of their albums, and can hear a fair amount of Kansas influence, especially on their first ... Orphan Found. I highly recommend.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Dynamis on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:40 pm

I would strongly recommend Affector:

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Markus1987 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:35 am

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by sentient 6 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:51 am

These guys are more progrock than metal...but still pretty good.



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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Soldier777 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:11 pm

I have all the Dream Theater CD and DVDs/BluRays. I would like to get some Neal Morse stuff too and based on the recommendations mentioned, I may get his 2 latest albums. I do like some prog rock and metal and I may check out the bands mentioned above.

Is Millennial Reign a prog band?
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by metaldude on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:41 pm

Millenial Reign is closer to power metal than progressive.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Nyx74 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:27 pm

I believe Believer's Dimensions also fits the category. Though a bit older....... I still get the chills when listening to Trilogy Of Knowledge
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by metaldude on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:51 pm

Nyx74 wrote:I believe Believer's Dimensions also fits the category. Though a bit older....... I still get the chills when listening to Trilogy Of Knowledge

+1
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Devon Hill on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:54 pm

One of the best Christian prog metal bands is Menahem in my opinion.



Another really promising new one is Narrow Gate.




Cosyns has lots of really good progressive elements in their music too.

https://cosyns.bandcamp.com/track/outward
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:43 pm

Antithesis
Alethian
Warlord
Tourniquet
Believer
Haven
Savatage

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Markus1987 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:47 am

You should check Skies Over Bethany. They are rocking Smile

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:09 am

Thanks for the suggestions so far, some I can filter out for several reasons though.

Affector - Mentioned them already in my original post
Narrow Gate - I know them, they don't have an album yet. But promising!

Antithesis - too much on the power/thrash side
Millennial Reign - don't get me started on this band Razz  they're more prog power metal anyway
Warlord - more like heavy/doom metal
Tourniquet  - cookiemonster vocals
Believer - same as far as I know
Savatage - not really christian, good band though!
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:57 am

OK, I listened to most of the suggestions (not all because youtube in Germany...). Some great stuff, sadly also stuff with cookiemonster vokillz. Didn't mean that by "melodic prog".

But what I did find interesting is that there were bands among them that have had a fairly short lifespan and a disappointing amount of releases. This raises the question, maybe this time more explicitly: why is "normal" prog metal and christian music such a bad marriage? I mean, just look at the number of well known active prog metal bands in the christian music scene. How many can you list? I can't think of any other metal subgenre that is so underrepresented in the harder regions of christian music.

A sidenote before I will try to trigger some of you: just because prog metal is "musician's music" hasn't stopped bands like Dream Theater and Fates Warning (and recent examples like Haken) from having a fairly large fanbase. So complexity should not be an excuse.

Or should it? I mean, let's speculate about this shortage of prog in the christian music scene. Are christians maybe less interested in complexity? Is the attention span of christian music lovers not that great? Or are christian artists in general not -that- creative?
Sounds a bit demeaning of course, but I like to see it as inviting you guys to think about this Wink
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by cailen on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:30 am

I was very impressed by Narrow Gate.

 Thanks for posting this!
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by timekeeper on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:35 am

cailen wrote:I was very impressed by Narrow Gate.

 Thanks for posting this!
As was I - sounds very good.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 am

Andreas89 wrote: Is the attention span of christian music lovers not that great?
Maybe I'm on to something here... Wink
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Professor_Valconian on Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:20 am

Theocracy has some proggy elements. Lance King as well.

But I agree, as a sub genre, prog rock and metal are under-represented in Christian music.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:48 am

Heh, I tried to exclude prog power in my original post. Yet with Theocracy things are more complicated. Matt draws inspiration from artists like Neal Morse, Fates Warning and Seventh Wonder (among others); yet there's also the obvious Edguy influence.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:04 pm

1) Why would christian artists stay away from prog metal that much?

Christian music is a niche.  Progressive music is a niche.  So you're talking about a niche of a niche.

Try putting together a band like this and keeping it together long enough to release anything good and you'll see why it's so rare and hard to do.


If you do manage to find some great musicians who can play prog metal they'll probably get recruited by some lame mainstream band that can pay them.  Look at what happened to Spiral Architect and why they've only released one 2 song demo and 1 full length album.


Last edited by Temple of Blood on Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:11 pm

A sidenote before I will try to trigger some of you: just because prog metal is "musician's music" hasn't stopped bands like Dream Theater and Fates Warning (and recent examples like Haken) from having a fairly large fanbase. So complexity should not be an excuse.

No prog metal band, secular or Christian, will ever get as big as them again because the music industry is dying and won't be coming back.  Those bands built their names back when there was a music industry and are still milking it even though their current releases aren't that inspiring any more.

Haken is nowhere near as big as those bands.  Do they even tour the U.S?  I mean a real tour, not a few regional dates.

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:07 am

It is not about how big the band is; it is about how well they reach their target audience. If you take the year 2005 as a starting point, you will see that there have been plenty of prog metal bands and christian power metal bands releasing their first album since then. Compared to that, there is a disproportionately low number of christian prog bands.

So with 2005 as a starting point, let's look at the different groups.
Prog bands: Haken, Seventh Wonder, Darkwater, Circus Maximus, Waken Eyes and many more.
Christian power metal bands: Sacrecy, Northern Flame, Gloriam Dei, Diviner, Within Silence, Signum Regis etc.

Compare that to the christian prog metal bands: Affector (great!), Wingdom (split up), Mehida (haven't heard of them for years), S91...

Labels play a big part in pushing bands in the spotlights. And good bands are not easily overlooked, especially in the christian metal niche. Just look at the power bands I named; I don't think Gloriam Dei has more than 1000 likes on facebook, but I know them because christian metal has good channels on the internet; Gloriam Dei is unsigned even and I still know them. And again, I am not demanding high standards of publicity.

Christian power metal musicians also get "stolen" by the way; just look at Tommy Johansson who now plays in the (inferior yet fun) Sabaton.

There is no reason for christian progressive bands going unnoticed; they do not need to tour to gain attention in the christian music scene. So that brings me back to my point: there is a disproportionately low number of christian prog metal bands. And I want to know why.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Professor_Valconian on Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:41 am

To be fair, you can't compare the absolute number of Christian Prog bands to the number of secular Prog bands since there are way more secular musicians out there. You need to compare the % of Prog bands within the overall rock/metal genre for both Christian and secular musicians. Looked at this way, are the percentages that much different? Like Temple said, Prog is a niche sub genre. The number of bands in that niche is going to be a small percentage of the whole, both in Christian market as well as secular. I would expect there to be fewer Christian Prog bands, just like any other genre.

Maybe you are looking at percentages ... not sure.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:58 am

Name an active christian prog metal band with more than two albums released.

I cannot. For power metal it would not be a problem though. And power metal is also a niche. But maybe a more popular one?
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Professor_Valconian on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:18 pm

Active secular progressive metal bands / Total active secular metal bands = X%

Maybe (Total active Christian metal bands * X%) < One?
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:30 pm

Ha!
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:18 pm

Andreas89 wrote:Name an active christian prog metal band with more than two albums released.

I cannot. And power metal is also a niche. But maybe a more popular one?

Tourniquet.

And of course power metal is more popular than prog.

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:19 pm

Professor_Valconian wrote:To be fair, you can't compare the absolute number of Christian Prog bands to the number of secular Prog bands since there are way more secular musicians out there. You need to compare the % of Prog bands within the overall rock/metal genre for both Christian and secular musicians. Looked at this way, are the percentages that much different?

Well put.

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:58 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:Tourniquet.
Tourniquet is thrash. Progressive thrash maybe, but I have stated several times that this topic is about "pure" prog metal.


And of course power metal is more popular than prog.
That could be true. On the other hand, Dream Theater has twice as much likes on facebook as Helloween.

But well, it would be interesting to see what percentage of bands with the power and prog niche are christian. My thesis for now is that it's way lower in prog.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:17 pm

Andreas89 wrote:
Temple of Blood wrote:Tourniquet.
Tourniquet is thrash. Progressive thrash maybe, but I have stated several times that this topic is about "pure" prog metal.


And of course power metal is more popular than prog.
That could be true. On the other hand, Dream Theater has twice as much likes on facebook as Helloween.

But well, it would be interesting to see what percentage of bands with the power and prog niche are christian. My thesis for now is that it's way lower in prog.

What in the world is "pure prog metal"?  Euro-riffless flower metal?

Progressive thrash is a sub-category of progressive metal, just like thrash is a child of metal.

Dream Theater has probably played 10-20 times as many shows as Helloween.  I'd be cautious using likes as much of an indicator of popularity.

You can do an Advanced Search on Metal-Archives to get an idea of numbers for these genres.  And I guarantee there is no way to search for "pure prog metal".

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:56 am

"Pure" prog metal is prog metal that is melodic, without cookiemonster vocals of any sort. I called it "melodic prog" in my original post. And longer and/or unusual kind of songs. You might want to take a look at the examples I provided. I try to get that idea across by both saying "pure" and "melodic" prog and providing the examples that fit that description. Dream Theater being the most obvious example of course.

And I know perfectly well that a comparison of facebook likes isn't conclusive in any way; but it might be an indicator.

I did do a search on metal archives; and of course, there is nothing listed as "pure prog". That was just a way of getting my message across. I'm trying to focus on the bands that are only listed as "progressive metal", not "progressive thrash/power/death/black metal". Just to make things a bit more clear (which is definitely needed, I see), I consciously use the term "prog metal" and not "progressive metal" in this context. You know, "prog metal" as an established subgenre of metal, a subgenre that actually is not necessarily interested in being revolutionary.

Look, I'm trying to find out if my assumption of a relatively low number of prog metal bands in the christian scene is correct. And if yes (which certainly seems to be the case), what the reason is for that.
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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Temple of Blood on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:26 am

Dream Theater were influenced by thrash, as they have said many times.  So much for purity!

Tourniquet don't really have "cookie monster" vocals IIRC, at least on several of their albums.  But Dream Theater do!  At least on one song.

Your purity test is highly dubious.

"prog metal" is just a shortening of "progressive metal", as everyone knows.  They are the same term and same genre.  Otherwise, the word "prog" has no meaning.  It was clearly derived from "progressive", as it was in the days of progressive/prog rock which predates progressive metal by a decade or so.

I think you are thinking of Euro power metal, as opposed to US power metal.  Or what I and many others call "flower metal".  And yes, I agree it is far from revolutionary and certainly not progressive.

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Re: Where are the christian progressive metal bands?!

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:16 am

OK, I'm not going into that, because that's straying from the topic. This is NOT a discussion about how prog metal came to be and what is the proper definition. Neither is this a topic to bash euro power metal (I can see where that feud is coming from though, judging by your signature).

For this topic, I get to choose the definition of prog that I am looking for. Most metal fans would know what I am talking about. And because there are plenty of prog metal bands around that fit my parameters (melodic, no harsh/cookie vokillz), it is justified to wonder why there are so few christian bands among them.

It is kind of weird that the likes of DT, FW and Haken make you think about euro flower metal by the way. Not that it's too far fetched, but still.

Now, I'm still interested in discussing the questions I asked. If you want to discuss the actual matter, that's fine. If you want to keep talking about the things you speak about, you're free to start a new topic.
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